6 ms·

France Bashing Is So 2012 (Here Is Why)

47 points by cyrillevincey 13y ago

linux_devil 13y ago
Way to go !
Yoric 13y ago
Oh, also, don't forget that we have a few "minor" companies represented in France, such as Mozilla, Microsoft R&D, Apple R&D, Google R&D, IBM R&D, Intel R&D, etc. all of them involved in some extent in the French startup ecosystem. For instance, Mozilla (where I work) hosts events with startups, has its own accelerator for startups, and provides some mentorship. Of course, that's for startups that aim for open source, open web, open government, privacy, or any other form of greater good.
flexie 13y ago
"Ok, Paris will never compete with San Francisco" Not so sure about that. Never is a very long word. I bet Paris can compete with San Francisco on tech before San Francisco can compete on charm.
- cyrillevincey 13y ago
  You are soooo damn right.
rxdazn 13y ago
> Plus, French engineers compensations are half US engineers compensations in average. Hmm... yeah, how is that a good thing? There's also that common thing where startups hire interns and ask for the knowledge of a very specific stack, 10 different skills, bachelor's degree level and offer 600e/month (min. is 436.05e which makes it 2.875e per hour -- if your internship is longer than two months, 0 if shorter) because "oh yeah, you're an intern, you're here to learn. plus we're a start up, we don't have any money". I love working at startups but sometimes their offers are a fucking joke around here. I know internships shouldn't be done for the money, I've already done some 436.05e/month ones, don't worry about that.
- Yoric 13y ago
  As a former startup CTO, I confirm that "we" (== the start-ups) love interns, for all the bad reasons. They are dirt cheap, they often don't have enough experience to say no when they are handed the crap tasks, and if we decide to hire them, we can offer very low wages, because they often don't take the time to check out the competition. Oh, and they can be blamed for just about anything wrong that happens, too. Sorry about this, interns, that wasn't my call.
  - userulluipeste 13y ago
    I remember my days as intern. So true! It's a dirty game, but it is played dirty (most of the time) by both sides. The (presumably) naïve intern only stays until he wakes up, then having now the luxury of time on his side and the leverage of already being employed, just bids himself to better offers.
- cyrillevincey 13y ago
  True. But good French startups pay good compensations for good interns. Believe me.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    Good by Silicon Valley standards or good by European standards? Because as a software engineer moving from Minneapolis to Palo Alto to London, I have to say salaries in Europe are a fucking joke (although it's improving).
    - cyrillevincey 13y ago
      Don't know about London, but the ration [salary]/[cost of life] in Paris is way better than in SF for a good software engineer.
      - dasil003 13y ago
        That's meaningless since costs vary along different axes. I just mean objectively software engineers have not traditionally been valued the same in Europe as they have been in the US.
skrebbel 13y ago
I really like the point this story is making, but I've really not seen much "France Bashing" going around lately. Did I miss anything? Additionally, the points made seem to apply to a large extent to many European countries. Which is a good thing, of course.
- cyrillevincey 13y ago
  Thanks. The #pigeons did hurt a lot last year, and after a few months in SF and in Boston I've been amazed how many beliefs foreign observers have about the French startup ecosystem. You're probably right about France (vs) Europe. Would be happy to have some comments from European folks here.
  - skrebbel 13y ago
    Some links about that "pigeons" thing would strenghten your article. I had to google the term to understand what it meant - a national political pressure campaign about taxes that backfired in terms of reputation, am I right? When reading the article I just skipped that particular point thinking it was some kind of inside joke I didn't get. One thing I'd like to know about Paris is how non-French-speaking-friendly the startup scene there is. I'm Dutch, my French goes as far as "je m'appelle une baguette". I'm weary of moving to Paris simply because of my experience that the French are, well, less comfortable communicating in English than the inhabitants of some other countries around here, even among the higher educated.
    - cyrillevincey 13y ago
      You're right, thanks @skrebbel. "Pigeons" were indeed a group of entrepreneurs fighting a new tax project of the newly elected socialist government in 2012. If they were right or wrong, I won't debate, I'm just thinking they did a terrible job in downgrading the image of France abroad. Non-French-speaking entrepreneurs are welcome in Paris, I can help putting you in touch with good accelerators that can host you and provide guidance. The startup scene in France today is totally fluent in English, you should feel comfortale.
patrickaljord 13y ago
This sounds better than French government propaganda. Don't listen to this guy. France has great food, wine and architecture, I know that, I live here in Paris. But it's a hell hole if you're an entrepreneur, taxes are killing (+60%), investors get most of their money taken away, the State is bordering on insanity, social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're forced to pay for it+a private insurance and firing people is extremely costly, you can end up paying someone for years even though he's not doing anything anymore. And you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will side by default with the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to begin with or at least socialist if you wish. Also, here, 99% of people are statists. Every political debates revolve around this: "how can the state fix our problems and pay our bills". Depressing. Recently, many entrepreneurs decided to go on strike and stop paying some of their unfair taxes, Atlas Shrugged is literally happening here, all the richest have left, many entrepreneurs have left, many who stayed are going on strike. You know something is wrong with a country when Ayn Rand's exaggerated prophecies are becoming a reality. Anyway. Just my two cents. Edit: Dear fellow French. Please argue, don't just downvote and call BS.
- p4bl0 13y ago
  This is bullshit.
  - e40 13y ago
    Yeah, the most judges here are communists/far left to begin with was where I got on the train.
    - patrickaljord 13y ago
      Well, obviously you two are French statists who believe in their system.
      - cyrillevincey 13y ago
        ... aren't by McCarthy's son by any chance?
lttlrck 13y ago
What's 2012 got to do with anything? It's a national pastime in some corners of the world...
viggity 13y ago
$5000 to incorporate in the US? I paid $80. Also, they're talking about how it is "easy" to fire people... if you give them 3 months of notice? Craziness.

47 points by cyrillevincey 13y ago

Way to go !

Yoric 13y ago

Oh, also, don't forget that we have a few "minor" companies represented in France, such as Mozilla, Microsoft R&D, Apple R&D, Google R&D, IBM R&D, Intel R&D, etc. all of them involved in some extent in the French startup ecosystem. For instance, Mozilla (where I work) hosts events with startups, has its own accelerator for startups, and provides some mentorship. Of course, that's for startups that aim for open source, open web, open government, privacy, or any other form of greater good.

flexie 13y ago

"Ok, Paris will never compete with San Francisco" Not so sure about that. Never is a very long word. I bet Paris can compete with San Francisco on tech before San Francisco can compete on charm.

cyrillevincey 13y ago
You are soooo damn right.

rxdazn 13y ago

> Plus, French engineers compensations are half US engineers compensations in average. Hmm... yeah, how is that a good thing? There's also that common thing where startups hire interns and ask for the knowledge of a very specific stack, 10 different skills, bachelor's degree level and offer 600e/month (min. is 436.05e which makes it 2.875e per hour -- if your internship is longer than two months, 0 if shorter) because "oh yeah, you're an intern, you're here to learn. plus we're a start up, we don't have any money". I love working at startups but sometimes their offers are a fucking joke around here. I know internships shouldn't be done for the money, I've already done some 436.05e/month ones, don't worry about that.

Yoric 13y ago
As a former startup CTO, I confirm that "we" (== the start-ups) love interns, for all the bad reasons. They are dirt cheap, they often don't have enough experience to say no when they are handed the crap tasks, and if we decide to hire them, we can offer very low wages, because they often don't take the time to check out the competition. Oh, and they can be blamed for just about anything wrong that happens, too. Sorry about this, interns, that wasn't my call.
- userulluipeste 13y ago
  I remember my days as intern. So true! It's a dirty game, but it is played dirty (most of the time) by both sides. The (presumably) naïve intern only stays until he wakes up, then having now the luxury of time on his side and the leverage of already being employed, just bids himself to better offers.
cyrillevincey 13y ago
True. But good French startups pay good compensations for good interns. Believe me.
- dasil003 13y ago
  Good by Silicon Valley standards or good by European standards? Because as a software engineer moving from Minneapolis to Palo Alto to London, I have to say salaries in Europe are a fucking joke (although it's improving).
  - cyrillevincey 13y ago
    Don't know about London, but the ration [salary]/[cost of life] in Paris is way better than in SF for a good software engineer.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      That's meaningless since costs vary along different axes. I just mean objectively software engineers have not traditionally been valued the same in Europe as they have been in the US.

skrebbel 13y ago

I really like the point this story is making, but I've really not seen much "France Bashing" going around lately. Did I miss anything? Additionally, the points made seem to apply to a large extent to many European countries. Which is a good thing, of course.

cyrillevincey 13y ago
Thanks. The #pigeons did hurt a lot last year, and after a few months in SF and in Boston I've been amazed how many beliefs foreign observers have about the French startup ecosystem. You're probably right about France (vs) Europe. Would be happy to have some comments from European folks here.
- skrebbel 13y ago
  Some links about that "pigeons" thing would strenghten your article. I had to google the term to understand what it meant - a national political pressure campaign about taxes that backfired in terms of reputation, am I right? When reading the article I just skipped that particular point thinking it was some kind of inside joke I didn't get. One thing I'd like to know about Paris is how non-French-speaking-friendly the startup scene there is. I'm Dutch, my French goes as far as "je m'appelle une baguette". I'm weary of moving to Paris simply because of my experience that the French are, well, less comfortable communicating in English than the inhabitants of some other countries around here, even among the higher educated.
  - cyrillevincey 13y ago
    You're right, thanks @skrebbel. "Pigeons" were indeed a group of entrepreneurs fighting a new tax project of the newly elected socialist government in 2012. If they were right or wrong, I won't debate, I'm just thinking they did a terrible job in downgrading the image of France abroad. Non-French-speaking entrepreneurs are welcome in Paris, I can help putting you in touch with good accelerators that can host you and provide guidance. The startup scene in France today is totally fluent in English, you should feel comfortale.

patrickaljord 13y ago

This sounds better than French government propaganda. Don't listen to this guy. France has great food, wine and architecture, I know that, I live here in Paris. But it's a hell hole if you're an entrepreneur, taxes are killing (+60%), investors get most of their money taken away, the State is bordering on insanity, social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're forced to pay for it+a private insurance and firing people is extremely costly, you can end up paying someone for years even though he's not doing anything anymore. And you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will side by default with the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to begin with or at least socialist if you wish. Also, here, 99% of people are statists. Every political debates revolve around this: "how can the state fix our problems and pay our bills". Depressing. Recently, many entrepreneurs decided to go on strike and stop paying some of their unfair taxes, Atlas Shrugged is literally happening here, all the richest have left, many entrepreneurs have left, many who stayed are going on strike. You know something is wrong with a country when Ayn Rand's exaggerated prophecies are becoming a reality. Anyway. Just my two cents. Edit: Dear fellow French. Please argue, don't just downvote and call BS.

p4bl0 13y ago
This is bullshit.
- e40 13y ago
  Yeah, the most judges here are communists/far left to begin with was where I got on the train.
  - patrickaljord 13y ago
    Well, obviously you two are French statists who believe in their system.
    - cyrillevincey 13y ago
      ... aren't by McCarthy's son by any chance?

lttlrck 13y ago

What's 2012 got to do with anything? It's a national pastime in some corners of the world...

viggity 13y ago

$5000 to incorporate in the US? I paid $80. Also, they're talking about how it is "easy" to fire people... if you give them 3 months of notice? Craziness.