5 ms·

> If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it. If you can't tell then what difference d

> If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it. If you can't tell then what difference does it make?

codexon 13y ago
It makes a difference to the male applicants that would've been accepted if there wasn't a bias.
- davorak 13y ago
  A program erasing the current cultural bias/momentum against females will make a difference to all the females who will not have to face said momentum/bias.
  - codexon 13y ago
    But how do you know that a 50/50 balance is even natural in engineering fields like CS? Why isn't there a 50/50 balance and other similar initiatives for males for female dominated subjects like nursing and education?
    - davorak 13y ago
      Is there solid evidence of an IQ difference between the genders or a general subject, with a biological understanding of why such a difference exists? I currently have not come across any such solid evidence and biological understanding. Seems unproductive to operate under an understanding far from 50/50 when I do not have solid evidence that I should be.
      - codexon 13y ago
        I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that most females don't want to sit in front of a screen all day with minimal social interaction often working 70 hour weeks? Is it because you feel that the field of CS is so superior that no one could dislike it?
        davorak 13y ago
        > I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. I was not implying you did. IQ is one well know metric but others such as "a general subject", as I asked for before, are welcome as well. I asked for solid evidence that operating away form 50/50 is more productive. If you have some I am willing to look it over.
        codexon 13y ago
        I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. This CS professor from MIT explains why fewer females choose engineering studies like CS. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Specifically this quote. > What about women? Don't they want to impress their peers? Yes, but they are more discriminating about choosing those peers. I've taught a fair number of women students in electrical engineering and computer science classes over the years. I can give you a list of the ones who had the best heads on their shoulders and were the most thoughtful about planning out the rest of their lives. Their names are on files in my "medical school recommendations" directory.
        davorak 13y ago
        > I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. I was not trying to communicate my desire. Rather what is optimal? I need strong evidence to operate far from 50/50. > Specifically this quote. This counts as evidence, but not enough evidence to get me to think the optimum is close to having 14-18% female CS degree recipients(2010). Nice graph over time: http://blogs.computerworld.com/sites/computerworld.com/files/u28/women2.jpg http://blogs.computerworld.com/sites/computerworld.com/files... from article: http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-computer-science-visual-trendline http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput... Summary statistics: http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNumbers09.pdf http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNum...
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
arthulia 13y ago
With only 660 students and around 3,000 highly qualified applicants, I'm pretty sure Mudd can be very picky about who they admit without introducing a bias.

> If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it. If you can't tell then what difference does it make?

codexon 13y ago

It makes a difference to the male applicants that would've been accepted if there wasn't a bias.

davorak 13y ago
A program erasing the current cultural bias/momentum against females will make a difference to all the females who will not have to face said momentum/bias.
- codexon 13y ago
  But how do you know that a 50/50 balance is even natural in engineering fields like CS? Why isn't there a 50/50 balance and other similar initiatives for males for female dominated subjects like nursing and education?
  - davorak 13y ago
    Is there solid evidence of an IQ difference between the genders or a general subject, with a biological understanding of why such a difference exists? I currently have not come across any such solid evidence and biological understanding. Seems unproductive to operate under an understanding far from 50/50 when I do not have solid evidence that I should be.
    - codexon 13y ago
      I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that most females don't want to sit in front of a screen all day with minimal social interaction often working 70 hour weeks? Is it because you feel that the field of CS is so superior that no one could dislike it?
      - davorak 13y ago
        > I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. I was not implying you did. IQ is one well know metric but others such as "a general subject", as I asked for before, are welcome as well. I asked for solid evidence that operating away form 50/50 is more productive. If you have some I am willing to look it over.
        codexon 13y ago
        I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. This CS professor from MIT explains why fewer females choose engineering studies like CS. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Specifically this quote. > What about women? Don't they want to impress their peers? Yes, but they are more discriminating about choosing those peers. I've taught a fair number of women students in electrical engineering and computer science classes over the years. I can give you a list of the ones who had the best heads on their shoulders and were the most thoughtful about planning out the rest of their lives. Their names are on files in my "medical school recommendations" directory.
        davorak 13y ago
        > I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. I was not trying to communicate my desire. Rather what is optimal? I need strong evidence to operate far from 50/50. > Specifically this quote. This counts as evidence, but not enough evidence to get me to think the optimum is close to having 14-18% female CS degree recipients(2010). Nice graph over time: http://blogs.computerworld.com/sites/computerworld.com/files/u28/women2.jpg http://blogs.computerworld.com/sites/computerworld.com/files... from article: http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-computer-science-visual-trendline http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput... Summary statistics: http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNumbers09.pdf http://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/legacy/pdf/BytheNum...
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

arthulia 13y ago

With only 660 students and around 3,000 highly qualified applicants, I'm pretty sure Mudd can be very picky about who they admit without introducing a bias.