4 ms·

Citation needed. Anecdotal rebuttal: I know a bunch of female students at Harvey Mudd and that doesn't appear to be the case.

codexon 13y ago
It doesn't need a citation, it is supported by Occam's razor while you are suggesting a complex explanation. How does Harvey Mudd magically close their gender gap as though they suddenly decided to stop discriminating against females all these years? If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it.
- arthulia 13y ago
  > If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it. If you can't tell then what difference does it make?
  - codexon 13y ago
    It makes a difference to the male applicants that would've been accepted if there wasn't a bias.
    - davorak 13y ago
      A program erasing the current cultural bias/momentum against females will make a difference to all the females who will not have to face said momentum/bias.
      - codexon 13y ago
        But how do you know that a 50/50 balance is even natural in engineering fields like CS? Why isn't there a 50/50 balance and other similar initiatives for males for female dominated subjects like nursing and education?
        davorak 13y ago
        Is there solid evidence of an IQ difference between the genders or a general subject, with a biological understanding of why such a difference exists? I currently have not come across any such solid evidence and biological understanding. Seems unproductive to operate under an understanding far from 50/50 when I do not have solid evidence that I should be.
        codexon 13y ago
        I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that most females don't want to sit in front of a screen all day with minimal social interaction often working 70 hour weeks? Is it because you feel that the field of CS is so superior that no one could dislike it?
        davorak 13y ago
        > I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. I was not implying you did. IQ is one well know metric but others such as "a general subject", as I asked for before, are welcome as well. I asked for solid evidence that operating away form 50/50 is more productive. If you have some I am willing to look it over.
        codexon 13y ago
        I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. This CS professor from MIT explains why fewer females choose engineering studies like CS. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Specifically this quote. > What about women? Don't they want to impress their peers? Yes, but they are more discriminating about choosing those peers. I've taught a fair number of women students in electrical engineering and computer science classes over the years. I can give you a list of the ones who had the best heads on their shoulders and were the most thoughtful about planning out the rest of their lives. Their names are on files in my "medical school recommendations" directory.
  - arthulia 13y ago
    With only 660 students and around 3,000 highly qualified applicants, I'm pretty sure Mudd can be very picky about who they admit without introducing a bias.
- davorak 13y ago
  The 48 percent statistic is for the junior year, the third year. It seems like your argument would require Mudd to grade females more lightly for the at least the first three years. This seems unlikely since it would require some form of collusion between all/most CS professors(maybe TAs too).
  - codexon 13y ago
    I don't follow this argument. You are suggesting that the rate of females leaving the major/school is exactly proportional to the grade they get. I don't believe anyone would quit a school/major because they scored a little bit lower average. This might be possible if they all happened to be near the threshold for failing but I doubt Mudd is this strict. Also everyone is well aware of affirmative action, so even if their grades were worse they would not think they would not be able to compete for the same jobs/academic positions.
    - davorak 13y ago
      > I don't follow this argument. You are suggesting that the rate of females leaving the major/school is exactly proportional to the grade they get. The percentage of females normal drops year by year in the CS programs I am familiar with. This does not seem to be happening at Mudd to the degree it does elsewhere. I have not see you put forward how initial acceptance has changed this trend, or that the trend exists at Mudd and they simply start the first year with a high female ratio say 40%-60% male-female. > I don't believe anyone would quit a school/major because they scored a little bit lower average. This might be possible if they all happened to be near the threshold for failing but I doubt Mudd is this strict. People do switch majors when they are below average, not always but I would be surprised if this reason is rare. Your argument now requires that the females are below average compared to the males but not so below average that they want to switch majors. I would count this as a minor complexity penalty to your argument. > Also everyone is well aware of affirmative action, so even if their grades were worse they would not think they would not be able to compete for the same jobs/academic positions. This by it self does not work at most universities. So what makes Mudd different that this argument works there?
coryrc 13y ago
Please use "women" instead of "girls", unless you are talking about children under ~11.
- dnautics 13y ago
  what if they're under 21? I'd call a male college student a boy in most situations.
- arthulia 13y ago
  Point taken although I'm not sure I agree. I hope "female students" is an acceptable compromise.
Tichy 13y ago
How would the students know that they had laxer requirements?

codexon 13y ago

It doesn't need a citation, it is supported by Occam's razor while you are suggesting a complex explanation. How does Harvey Mudd magically close their gender gap as though they suddenly decided to stop discriminating against females all these years? If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it.

arthulia 13y ago
> If the girls you knew were, say 10% less capable compared to male applicants, would you be able to tell? I doubt it. If you can't tell then what difference does it make?
- codexon 13y ago
  It makes a difference to the male applicants that would've been accepted if there wasn't a bias.
  - davorak 13y ago
    A program erasing the current cultural bias/momentum against females will make a difference to all the females who will not have to face said momentum/bias.
    - codexon 13y ago
      But how do you know that a 50/50 balance is even natural in engineering fields like CS? Why isn't there a 50/50 balance and other similar initiatives for males for female dominated subjects like nursing and education?
      - davorak 13y ago
        Is there solid evidence of an IQ difference between the genders or a general subject, with a biological understanding of why such a difference exists? I currently have not come across any such solid evidence and biological understanding. Seems unproductive to operate under an understanding far from 50/50 when I do not have solid evidence that I should be.
        codexon 13y ago
        I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. Why wouldn't you consider the possibility that most females don't want to sit in front of a screen all day with minimal social interaction often working 70 hour weeks? Is it because you feel that the field of CS is so superior that no one could dislike it?
        davorak 13y ago
        > I never brought up the argument that males are smarter than females. I was not implying you did. IQ is one well know metric but others such as "a general subject", as I asked for before, are welcome as well. I asked for solid evidence that operating away form 50/50 is more productive. If you have some I am willing to look it over.
        codexon 13y ago
        I don't know why you assume that 50/50 is the desired ratio when acceptance is supposed to be self-selected and merit based. This CS professor from MIT explains why fewer females choose engineering studies like CS. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science Specifically this quote. > What about women? Don't they want to impress their peers? Yes, but they are more discriminating about choosing those peers. I've taught a fair number of women students in electrical engineering and computer science classes over the years. I can give you a list of the ones who had the best heads on their shoulders and were the most thoughtful about planning out the rest of their lives. Their names are on files in my "medical school recommendations" directory.
- arthulia 13y ago
  With only 660 students and around 3,000 highly qualified applicants, I'm pretty sure Mudd can be very picky about who they admit without introducing a bias.
davorak 13y ago
The 48 percent statistic is for the junior year, the third year. It seems like your argument would require Mudd to grade females more lightly for the at least the first three years. This seems unlikely since it would require some form of collusion between all/most CS professors(maybe TAs too).
- codexon 13y ago
  I don't follow this argument. You are suggesting that the rate of females leaving the major/school is exactly proportional to the grade they get. I don't believe anyone would quit a school/major because they scored a little bit lower average. This might be possible if they all happened to be near the threshold for failing but I doubt Mudd is this strict. Also everyone is well aware of affirmative action, so even if their grades were worse they would not think they would not be able to compete for the same jobs/academic positions.
  - davorak 13y ago
    > I don't follow this argument. You are suggesting that the rate of females leaving the major/school is exactly proportional to the grade they get. The percentage of females normal drops year by year in the CS programs I am familiar with. This does not seem to be happening at Mudd to the degree it does elsewhere. I have not see you put forward how initial acceptance has changed this trend, or that the trend exists at Mudd and they simply start the first year with a high female ratio say 40%-60% male-female. > I don't believe anyone would quit a school/major because they scored a little bit lower average. This might be possible if they all happened to be near the threshold for failing but I doubt Mudd is this strict. People do switch majors when they are below average, not always but I would be surprised if this reason is rare. Your argument now requires that the females are below average compared to the males but not so below average that they want to switch majors. I would count this as a minor complexity penalty to your argument. > Also everyone is well aware of affirmative action, so even if their grades were worse they would not think they would not be able to compete for the same jobs/academic positions. This by it self does not work at most universities. So what makes Mudd different that this argument works there?

coryrc 13y ago

Please use "women" instead of "girls", unless you are talking about children under ~11.

dnautics 13y ago
what if they're under 21? I'd call a male college student a boy in most situations.
arthulia 13y ago
Point taken although I'm not sure I agree. I hope "female students" is an acceptable compromise.

Tichy 13y ago

How would the students know that they had laxer requirements?