8 ms·

The article linked by OP is just plain wrong on so many aspects. The one linked here, OTHO, seems to get things quite right. I am a neuroscientist and I study

The article linked by OP is just plain wrong on so many aspects. The one linked here, OTHO, seems to get things quite right. I am a neuroscientist and I study sleep (genetics of sleep, to be precise); I am amused and intrigued by the amount of threads concerning sleep I found on HN. Only in the last week I think I could find 4 or so. May I suggest few hints on the matter? As a general rule: - there is no a common "minimum amount of sleep". Sleeping time, sleeping needs and ability to cope with sleep deprivation are different in different people. By the age of 30 you should definitely be able to know what your needs are. - the accepted rule is: if you need an alarm clock to wake up in the morning, then you are sleep deprived. sleep deprivation is detrimental for your performance - if you cannot achieve a night of resting sleep you might be experiencing a sleep problem. sleep apnea is very frequent and very likely if you are overweight. - don't believe of self-reported sleeping patterns, especially if they come from eccentric people or even worse if they date back centuries. Italian dictator Mussolini used to have one person staging in his office at night: he would leave the lights on and move around occasionally so that people looking at the window would believe the Duce never slept. The idea that sleep is for weak and superhero don't need sleep is just BS, of course. - Let me conclude with a thought. I like to hear your opinions about this. I do research for living and I have learned that putting way too much effort in a very risky business can be very dangerous for your motivation. If you work 80/90 hours a week on something that will fail (and startups, like research, have a high risk of failure) you may end up being so demotivated that you will likely not give yourself a second chance. What I want to say is: if you work so much that it gets to the point when is not fun any more, maybe you should consider slowing down.

randallsquared 17y ago
By the age of 30 you should definitely be able to know what your needs are. Well, except that it was around 30 that my needs started changing. Until then I often needed 8-9 hours a day of sleep, but sometime after 30 I noticed that I wasn't sleeping as long (and I'd long been out of the habit of using an alarm clock until last year, because I worked for myself and never scheduled anything in the early morning). Now my average is more like 7 hours a day, and it's not uncommon for me to wake up after 5 or 6 hours feeling just as rested as I used to after 9. Talking about sleep schedules with my father led to the interesting revelation that this happened to him about my age, and it continued decreasing right along, so that now, in his 80s, he's only sleeping about 4 hours a night, and doesn't feel that he needs more. So, I guess I've got that to look forward to. :)
- crocowhile 17y ago
  You are absolutely right that sleep pattern (and in fact sleep architecture as well) changes with age. Sleep needs tends to decrease with age. 30y is pretty much the time when you enter into your "adult phase" that will last for the next 30 years or so.
  - encoderer 17y ago
    Do you have any insight on the role that sleep plays in the aging process? If we're able to get less good sleep as we age, and sleep is essential for mental acuity (forming memories, etc) and for physical health (growth hormone, etc), i've long wondered if the two are related.
    - crocowhile 17y ago
      The truth is that we still have no whatsoever idea of what sleep is for, to start with. There are hypothesis out there but none of them is even close to be considered scientifically plausible. Some of them say sleep has something to do with maintaining a plausible number of neuronal connections (synapses) in your brain: the more you learn and do during the day, the more synapses you build, the more sleep you need to clean up for the next day. As you age, your brain plasticity decreases, i.e. the ability for your brain to change the number of synapses is not as good. This is why you might need less sleep than when you were a young kid. If you are interested in the topic, I'd suggest to have a look here: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/waking-up-to-sleep http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/waking-up-to-sleep Some of the talks can be of interest to the general reader. The Science Network is a very good source of good-quality easy to access scientific material.
      - PieSquared 17y ago
        I'm 17, so that's not only less than thirty but also less than what most people consider 'adult' at all. Is screwing with my sleep cycle a bad idea at this age? Or is age irrelevant? Biphasic sleep especially sounds attractive to me, but I do not know whether it would be healthy to try. Given that you are a sleep researcher, I was hoping perhaps you could provide some insight?
petercooper 17y ago
- the accepted rule is: if you need an alarm clock to wake up in the morning, then you are sleep deprived. sleep deprivation is detrimental for your performance I have no problems getting to sleep, am not usually tired during the day, and have none of the usual symptoms of sleep apnea, but if I didn't use an alarm clock or similar, I would sleep 12-15 hours a day no problems. Yet, there's no way I can consider that acceptable so I make judicial use of alarms, and I feel just great once I get over 5 minutes or so of sleep inertia. Often, I can set an alarm for 6 or 7.5 hours after I fall asleep, and I feel great when the alarm goes off and can get up right away. Yet, if I didn't use that alarm, I would not be waking up naturally for several more hours. Perhaps I'm just a deep sleeper?
- TheSOB88 17y ago
  I think if you can sleep for more than half of a day you've definitely got some sleep debt going. Do you use caffeine at all? That may account for some of your other symptoms.
dmfdmf 17y ago
<i> sleep apnea is very frequent and very likely if you are overweight.</i> The current theory on apnea is that the throat collapses due to lower pressures on inhale. Being fat makes that situation worse. However, I believe some percentage of people with apnea are blocking on exhale due to anatomical structure or some such. CPAP would not work in this case (CPAP raises the internal throat pressure during breathing to avoid collapse). I think the number of people blocking on exhale could be quite high -- given the high CPAP treatment failures and the number of non-overweight apnea suffers. But the doctors and researchers deny that blocking on exhale is even possible.
- crocowhile 17y ago
  CPAP raises pressure all the time (stands for continuous positive airway pressure) so it avoids collapse at any time, not just during inhalation. I never heard of problems during exhale but if they exist CPAP should be quite effective anyway given that success rate of the machine is pretty much 100% when used correctly. It is also true that in quite a number of cases there are better solutions that using CPAP: most OSAs (obstructive sleep apnea) are due to obesity and losing weight would be a much better way to deal with it. Alas, lots of people find it easier to stick with a mask for the rest of their life rather than changing their daily routine (ironically my father is one of those, I am afraid).
  - dmfdmf 17y ago
    Well, this is the medical establishment's party line on apnea -- complete with arrogance, condescension and non-sense. I am questioning the differential pressure theory of apnea causing throat collapse. That is basic physics and the assumption behind CPAP. Your reply that even if people block on exhale "CPAP should be quite effective anyway" is non-sense on your own terms. Throat pressure is positive on exhale (even without CPAP) and blockage would be impossible since no forces could be generated to cause a collapse. You haven't heard about blockage on exhale because its impossible according to the current theory and so no one is looking for it. I am not deny that CPAP works for some people but its really only around 30%. The medical statistics say its 100% effective "when used correctly" because they drop the people from the stats who are "non-compliant". Given that apnea is a horrible condition, do you think those that drop CPAP are not being helped? Ultimately, people give up in frustration and are accused of being too fat and too lazy to use the CPAP and diet. Blame the patient. Is it possible that cause and effect works the other way -- that its easy to get fat and difficult to lose wt when one is obstructing because of the lack of energy and will-power? Is it possible that CPAP only works with certain types of apnea and is ineffective otherwise? How does the current theory explain the large numbers of apnea patients who are not overweight? I have apnea, I am not overweight and I block on exhale. I know because I've "caught" it occurring a number of times on waking. When I explained this to my doc he laughed in my face and said it was impossible. Another doc said I was just dreaming. I think they are both wrong and that the current theory of apnea is incomplete. Something not due to differential pressure blocks my throat, like a backflow valve, on exhale while I sleep. I can't imagine that I am the only one with this type and I think it might be fairly common. Anyway, the reason for my post is not to harangue you but in the hope that a medical researcher or doctor will hear of this alternative view and reexamine apnea and its treatment with fresh eyes and an open mind.
zackattack 17y ago
I am curious how polyphasic sleep preferentially affects consolidation of declarative or procedural memory. (That is: does it improve procedural memory, affected by REM sleep, at the expense of declarative memory, consolidated by SWS?)
- crocowhile 17y ago
  I don't think anybody ever looked at that. To be honest I don't even think there are so many studies on polyphasic sleep, tout-court. There's quite a lot of literature on people doing work shift, though, and we know they have plenty of troubles. As far as the memory part: the link you talk about (declarative NREM vs procedural REM) is very intriguing and many researchers are looking into sleep and memory in general. Yet, we are not at a stage where we can actually make so clear distinction: most work is still very very correlative.
heed 17y ago
I sleep with an alarm clock during the week, but I haven't heard it in years. I literally always wake up within a minute or two of it going off. Though I'm afraid if I don't set it, I will sleep through the time I need to be up. Anyone else experience this?
- tome 17y ago
  Yeah I've had the same experience in the past, though not so much recently. It's really quite weird!
ieatpaste 17y ago
I was wondering if you could comment on nocturnal/abnormal sleep cycles.
- crocowhile 17y ago
  mmm, I am sorry but I am not sure I got the question. Would you like to reformulate?
  - ieatpaste 17y ago
    It would be great if you could comment on coders coding at night and sleeping during the day or other schedules to optimize productivity. Is this detrimental from a sleep perspective? (I have heard unqualified statements that light affects the amount of awareness when awake/sleeping)

randallsquared 17y ago

By the age of 30 you should definitely be able to know what your needs are. Well, except that it was around 30 that my needs started changing. Until then I often needed 8-9 hours a day of sleep, but sometime after 30 I noticed that I wasn't sleeping as long (and I'd long been out of the habit of using an alarm clock until last year, because I worked for myself and never scheduled anything in the early morning). Now my average is more like 7 hours a day, and it's not uncommon for me to wake up after 5 or 6 hours feeling just as rested as I used to after 9. Talking about sleep schedules with my father led to the interesting revelation that this happened to him about my age, and it continued decreasing right along, so that now, in his 80s, he's only sleeping about 4 hours a night, and doesn't feel that he needs more. So, I guess I've got that to look forward to. :)

crocowhile 17y ago
You are absolutely right that sleep pattern (and in fact sleep architecture as well) changes with age. Sleep needs tends to decrease with age. 30y is pretty much the time when you enter into your "adult phase" that will last for the next 30 years or so.
- encoderer 17y ago
  Do you have any insight on the role that sleep plays in the aging process? If we're able to get less good sleep as we age, and sleep is essential for mental acuity (forming memories, etc) and for physical health (growth hormone, etc), i've long wondered if the two are related.
  - crocowhile 17y ago
    The truth is that we still have no whatsoever idea of what sleep is for, to start with. There are hypothesis out there but none of them is even close to be considered scientifically plausible. Some of them say sleep has something to do with maintaining a plausible number of neuronal connections (synapses) in your brain: the more you learn and do during the day, the more synapses you build, the more sleep you need to clean up for the next day. As you age, your brain plasticity decreases, i.e. the ability for your brain to change the number of synapses is not as good. This is why you might need less sleep than when you were a young kid. If you are interested in the topic, I'd suggest to have a look here: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/waking-up-to-sleep http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/waking-up-to-sleep Some of the talks can be of interest to the general reader. The Science Network is a very good source of good-quality easy to access scientific material.
    - PieSquared 17y ago
      I'm 17, so that's not only less than thirty but also less than what most people consider 'adult' at all. Is screwing with my sleep cycle a bad idea at this age? Or is age irrelevant? Biphasic sleep especially sounds attractive to me, but I do not know whether it would be healthy to try. Given that you are a sleep researcher, I was hoping perhaps you could provide some insight?

petercooper 17y ago

- the accepted rule is: if you need an alarm clock to wake up in the morning, then you are sleep deprived. sleep deprivation is detrimental for your performance I have no problems getting to sleep, am not usually tired during the day, and have none of the usual symptoms of sleep apnea, but if I didn't use an alarm clock or similar, I would sleep 12-15 hours a day no problems. Yet, there's no way I can consider that acceptable so I make judicial use of alarms, and I feel just great once I get over 5 minutes or so of sleep inertia. Often, I can set an alarm for 6 or 7.5 hours after I fall asleep, and I feel great when the alarm goes off and can get up right away. Yet, if I didn't use that alarm, I would not be waking up naturally for several more hours. Perhaps I'm just a deep sleeper?

TheSOB88 17y ago
I think if you can sleep for more than half of a day you've definitely got some sleep debt going. Do you use caffeine at all? That may account for some of your other symptoms.

dmfdmf 17y ago

<i> sleep apnea is very frequent and very likely if you are overweight.</i> The current theory on apnea is that the throat collapses due to lower pressures on inhale. Being fat makes that situation worse. However, I believe some percentage of people with apnea are blocking on exhale due to anatomical structure or some such. CPAP would not work in this case (CPAP raises the internal throat pressure during breathing to avoid collapse). I think the number of people blocking on exhale could be quite high -- given the high CPAP treatment failures and the number of non-overweight apnea suffers. But the doctors and researchers deny that blocking on exhale is even possible.

crocowhile 17y ago
CPAP raises pressure all the time (stands for continuous positive airway pressure) so it avoids collapse at any time, not just during inhalation. I never heard of problems during exhale but if they exist CPAP should be quite effective anyway given that success rate of the machine is pretty much 100% when used correctly. It is also true that in quite a number of cases there are better solutions that using CPAP: most OSAs (obstructive sleep apnea) are due to obesity and losing weight would be a much better way to deal with it. Alas, lots of people find it easier to stick with a mask for the rest of their life rather than changing their daily routine (ironically my father is one of those, I am afraid).
- dmfdmf 17y ago
  Well, this is the medical establishment's party line on apnea -- complete with arrogance, condescension and non-sense. I am questioning the differential pressure theory of apnea causing throat collapse. That is basic physics and the assumption behind CPAP. Your reply that even if people block on exhale "CPAP should be quite effective anyway" is non-sense on your own terms. Throat pressure is positive on exhale (even without CPAP) and blockage would be impossible since no forces could be generated to cause a collapse. You haven't heard about blockage on exhale because its impossible according to the current theory and so no one is looking for it. I am not deny that CPAP works for some people but its really only around 30%. The medical statistics say its 100% effective "when used correctly" because they drop the people from the stats who are "non-compliant". Given that apnea is a horrible condition, do you think those that drop CPAP are not being helped? Ultimately, people give up in frustration and are accused of being too fat and too lazy to use the CPAP and diet. Blame the patient. Is it possible that cause and effect works the other way -- that its easy to get fat and difficult to lose wt when one is obstructing because of the lack of energy and will-power? Is it possible that CPAP only works with certain types of apnea and is ineffective otherwise? How does the current theory explain the large numbers of apnea patients who are not overweight? I have apnea, I am not overweight and I block on exhale. I know because I've "caught" it occurring a number of times on waking. When I explained this to my doc he laughed in my face and said it was impossible. Another doc said I was just dreaming. I think they are both wrong and that the current theory of apnea is incomplete. Something not due to differential pressure blocks my throat, like a backflow valve, on exhale while I sleep. I can't imagine that I am the only one with this type and I think it might be fairly common. Anyway, the reason for my post is not to harangue you but in the hope that a medical researcher or doctor will hear of this alternative view and reexamine apnea and its treatment with fresh eyes and an open mind.

zackattack 17y ago

I am curious how polyphasic sleep preferentially affects consolidation of declarative or procedural memory. (That is: does it improve procedural memory, affected by REM sleep, at the expense of declarative memory, consolidated by SWS?)

crocowhile 17y ago
I don't think anybody ever looked at that. To be honest I don't even think there are so many studies on polyphasic sleep, tout-court. There's quite a lot of literature on people doing work shift, though, and we know they have plenty of troubles. As far as the memory part: the link you talk about (declarative NREM vs procedural REM) is very intriguing and many researchers are looking into sleep and memory in general. Yet, we are not at a stage where we can actually make so clear distinction: most work is still very very correlative.

heed 17y ago

I sleep with an alarm clock during the week, but I haven't heard it in years. I literally always wake up within a minute or two of it going off. Though I'm afraid if I don't set it, I will sleep through the time I need to be up. Anyone else experience this?

tome 17y ago
Yeah I've had the same experience in the past, though not so much recently. It's really quite weird!

ieatpaste 17y ago

I was wondering if you could comment on nocturnal/abnormal sleep cycles.

crocowhile 17y ago
mmm, I am sorry but I am not sure I got the question. Would you like to reformulate?
- ieatpaste 17y ago
  It would be great if you could comment on coders coding at night and sleeping during the day or other schedules to optimize productivity. Is this detrimental from a sleep perspective? (I have heard unqualified statements that light affects the amount of awareness when awake/sleeping)