4 ms·

> Especially in an environment where "hackers are no longer the apex predator." and especially in an environment where your peers sing like canaries because t

by zalew 13y ago

> Especially in an environment where "hackers are no longer the apex predator." and especially in an environment where your peers sing like canaries because they usually lack the (violence-driven) codex regarding the treatment of snitches. and yeah, I remember the case of that tortured guy from that cc forums, but from what I read about all those arrests, it's an exception that proves the rule.

ihsw 13y ago
It has nothing to do with codex or creed or any of that, it's simply self-preservation. Most people aren't ideologues willing to go all the way (to death and destitution) for their ideals.
- zalew 13y ago
  yes. I misused the word, sorry. was thinking codex as a set of strict rules, not set of ideological values and mafia-family bullshit.
  - grugq 13y ago
    There are almost no organisations that expect a code of silence indefinitely. It is not really a practical expectation of a human being. Most covert organisations (e.g. Hizbollah [0], KGB [1], IRA [2]) will expect their agents to remain silent long enough for everyone else at risk to escape. This is what happens when you remain silent rather than turn informant [3]. I have immense respect for Stephen Watt for keeping his honor, but I would not recommend taking that path to anyone in a similar situation. Lawyer up, and angle for the best plea deal you can get. [0] http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61946725012/hizb-allah-resurrected-the-party-of-god-s-return-to http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61946725012/hizb-allah-resurrec... [1] http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/59968838056/mastering-secret-work http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/59968838056/mastering-secret-wo... [2] http://tensmiths.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/15914572-ira-green-book-volumes-1-and-2.pdf http://tensmiths.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/15914572-ira-gr... [3] http://infiltratecon.com/watt.html http://infiltratecon.com/watt.html
    - zalew 13y ago
      Tx for the links, seem interesting, saved them for a later read. Yeah, you are absolutely right, but still I wouldn't compare lulzsec to the orgs you mentioned or mobsters. Lets get this straight - no hacktivist or cracker was found hanging on the cell bars or shot in the woods, that's just not a comparable environment to serious organized crime. If nobody is afraid even of getting their knees broken, not to mention ditched in a hole, is there anything stopping them from snitching the minute le shows up at the door? Snitching is punishable for a reason, and there is a reason that ruleset goes all the way down to street level crime or even minor offences (that last one actually differs among places for cultural and political reasons).
      - grugq 13y ago
        Informants are the greatest fear of all clandestine organisations. The reason for this is that they are privy to sensitive information that can be used to damage other members of the organisation. Read the links I posted. Read this analysis of evolving terrorist tradecraft: http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61952592764/evolution-of-terrorist-training http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61952592764/evolution-of-terror... Modern clandestine organisations use strict compartmentation to limit the information available to operatives so that informants have limited information. Examples of this exist even in the movies: http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/11/opsec-lessons-from-resevoir-dogs/ http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/11/opsec-lessons-from-re...
gcb0 13y ago
it is not lack of violence-driven knowledge about the ones that got caught. It is the lack of self preservation forward thinking of the ones not caught. Crime syndicates usually have insurance for families for people caught, and assurance that when they came out they will keep their share. If they didn't have this benefit they would be talking the same.

by zalew 13y ago

ihsw 13y ago

It has nothing to do with codex or creed or any of that, it's simply self-preservation. Most people aren't ideologues willing to go all the way (to death and destitution) for their ideals.

zalew 13y ago
yes. I misused the word, sorry. was thinking codex as a set of strict rules, not set of ideological values and mafia-family bullshit.
- grugq 13y ago
  There are almost no organisations that expect a code of silence indefinitely. It is not really a practical expectation of a human being. Most covert organisations (e.g. Hizbollah [0], KGB [1], IRA [2]) will expect their agents to remain silent long enough for everyone else at risk to escape. This is what happens when you remain silent rather than turn informant [3]. I have immense respect for Stephen Watt for keeping his honor, but I would not recommend taking that path to anyone in a similar situation. Lawyer up, and angle for the best plea deal you can get. [0] http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61946725012/hizb-allah-resurrected-the-party-of-god-s-return-to http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61946725012/hizb-allah-resurrec... [1] http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/59968838056/mastering-secret-work http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/59968838056/mastering-secret-wo... [2] http://tensmiths.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/15914572-ira-green-book-volumes-1-and-2.pdf http://tensmiths.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/15914572-ira-gr... [3] http://infiltratecon.com/watt.html http://infiltratecon.com/watt.html
  - zalew 13y ago
    Tx for the links, seem interesting, saved them for a later read. Yeah, you are absolutely right, but still I wouldn't compare lulzsec to the orgs you mentioned or mobsters. Lets get this straight - no hacktivist or cracker was found hanging on the cell bars or shot in the woods, that's just not a comparable environment to serious organized crime. If nobody is afraid even of getting their knees broken, not to mention ditched in a hole, is there anything stopping them from snitching the minute le shows up at the door? Snitching is punishable for a reason, and there is a reason that ruleset goes all the way down to street level crime or even minor offences (that last one actually differs among places for cultural and political reasons).
    - grugq 13y ago
      Informants are the greatest fear of all clandestine organisations. The reason for this is that they are privy to sensitive information that can be used to damage other members of the organisation. Read the links I posted. Read this analysis of evolving terrorist tradecraft: http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61952592764/evolution-of-terrorist-training http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/61952592764/evolution-of-terror... Modern clandestine organisations use strict compartmentation to limit the information available to operatives so that informants have limited information. Examples of this exist even in the movies: http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/11/opsec-lessons-from-resevoir-dogs/ http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/11/opsec-lessons-from-re...

gcb0 13y ago

it is not lack of violence-driven knowledge about the ones that got caught. It is the lack of self preservation forward thinking of the ones not caught. Crime syndicates usually have insurance for families for people caught, and assurance that when they came out they will keep their share. If they didn't have this benefit they would be talking the same.