8 ms·

If I were still an anarchist/hardcore libertarian, hiring hitman would still be unacceptable. (It doesn't still make me root for the FBI though)

by kiba 13y ago

grugq 13y ago
The issue is less about any specific ideology, but rather the social environment he was immersed in. Other than radicals, drug seekers, drug dealers and undercover law enforcement officials, he doesnt seem have had much social interaction. His peer group was ideologically warped far away from societal norms. He had no outlet for either gaining ego validation (e.g. going to a bar and griping about his crap day at his startup cause some weed dealer ran off with $200,000); or social validation (e.g. "Hey everyone, my startup marketplace is doing really well! I've struck it rich due to my hard work and clever understanding of Austrian School economic theory!"). He had to talk with the same people that were drawing him further away from society, because he could not talk to anyone in mainstream society. This is a problem for almost everyone living a "high security" covert life. I also strongly suspect that many of the undercover agents were acting as agent provocateurs, urging him on towards more extreme positions and actions. The Maryland Indictment reads like a set piece put-up job. I can believe that it was an operation with the dual intent of (a) documenting DPR committing a heinous crime, and (b) unmasking DPR, most likely though the wire transfer. Even if (b) failed, they would still have (a) to prosecute him with later.
VMG 13y ago
still, there was interesting discussion and even some praise in /r/Anacap: http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1nlyfd/lets_clear_the_air_in_here_facing_the_alleged/ccjulyl http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1nlyfd/l...
lmm 13y ago
Seriously? If you genuinely tried to hire a hitman then you're a danger to society and I'll side with pretty much anyone against you.
MichaelGG 13y ago
He was left in a very terrible situation and decision. He was facing someone who was willing to destroy many other people's lives (assuming drug dealers would be arrested). If you take that as a given prior, then the step of deciding to prevent that person from hurting others seems like basic self defense (while noting that the USG prevented him from using other measures). Edit: There's always still the possibility that DPR was aware he wasn't hiring hitmen, but felt it was the best negotiation tactic.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  How did he come to be in this terrible situation where he was forced to make such a decision?
  - grugq 13y ago
    It is covered in the Complaint. Essentially someone using the alias FriendlyChemist (FC) gained illegal access to a vendor's account, and possibly to a lot more. This gave FC a large trove of PII on SilkRoad buyers and sellers (names, addresses, etc). FC attempted to blackmail Dread Pirate Roberts (DPR) saying he would release the information publicly unless DPR paid him $500,000... which he needed because he was in debt to his upstream drug supplier. DPR then asked to be put in contact with the upstream supplier so he could "sort something out". The timeline of events is here: http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/62928607375/dread-pirate-roberts-extortion-timeline http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/62928607375/dread-pirate-robert...
    - tedunangst 13y ago
      Sorry, I meant the question to be a bit more meta. You don't usually wake up and find yourself in "oh shit, I need a hitman" situations out of the blue. It takes some work to get there.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        Is the premise here that nobody should ever put themselves into situations where they cannot rely on law enforcement and the justice systems to resolve disputes and incidents? Shipping companies semi-frequently seem to find themselves in situations where the wake up and think "Oh shoot, I need to hire some mercenaries." It takes some work to get into that sort of situation, but does that imply that they shouldn't have gotten themselves into that pickle?
saraid216 13y ago
> (It doesn't still make me root for the FBI though) Denouncing one side does not require you to cheer for the other. Just FYI.
rayiner 13y ago
I find DPR to be a fascinating case study. Anarcho-libertarians often reject the use of force, except maybe in self-defense, on principle. But use of force is a fundamental interaction between organisms. It's one of the first modes of interactions young children come to understand. It's unrealistic to take it off the table. No matter how "civilized" you are, it's always lurking there as the most basic solution to conflicts. So here you have DPR, this smart, "civilized" guy. But when he's backed into a corner, he lashes out with violence just like any other animal would. In this case he didn't even have any reason to fear for his own life. He lashed out with violence to protect his material interests, just like an animal defending its kill.

If I were still an anarchist/hardcore libertarian, hiring hitman would still be unacceptable. (It doesn't still make me root for the FBI though)

by kiba 13y ago

If I were still an anarchist/hardcore libertarian, hiring hitman would still be unacceptable. (It doesn't still make me root for the FBI though)

grugq 13y ago

The issue is less about any specific ideology, but rather the social environment he was immersed in. Other than radicals, drug seekers, drug dealers and undercover law enforcement officials, he doesnt seem have had much social interaction. His peer group was ideologically warped far away from societal norms. He had no outlet for either gaining ego validation (e.g. going to a bar and griping about his crap day at his startup cause some weed dealer ran off with $200,000); or social validation (e.g. "Hey everyone, my startup marketplace is doing really well! I've struck it rich due to my hard work and clever understanding of Austrian School economic theory!"). He had to talk with the same people that were drawing him further away from society, because he could not talk to anyone in mainstream society. This is a problem for almost everyone living a "high security" covert life. I also strongly suspect that many of the undercover agents were acting as agent provocateurs, urging him on towards more extreme positions and actions. The Maryland Indictment reads like a set piece put-up job. I can believe that it was an operation with the dual intent of (a) documenting DPR committing a heinous crime, and (b) unmasking DPR, most likely though the wire transfer. Even if (b) failed, they would still have (a) to prosecute him with later.

VMG 13y ago

still, there was interesting discussion and even some praise in /r/Anacap: http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1nlyfd/lets_clear_the_air_in_here_facing_the_alleged/ccjulyl http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/1nlyfd/l...

lmm 13y ago

Seriously? If you genuinely tried to hire a hitman then you're a danger to society and I'll side with pretty much anyone against you.

MichaelGG 13y ago

He was left in a very terrible situation and decision. He was facing someone who was willing to destroy many other people's lives (assuming drug dealers would be arrested). If you take that as a given prior, then the step of deciding to prevent that person from hurting others seems like basic self defense (while noting that the USG prevented him from using other measures). Edit: There's always still the possibility that DPR was aware he wasn't hiring hitmen, but felt it was the best negotiation tactic.

tedunangst 13y ago
How did he come to be in this terrible situation where he was forced to make such a decision?
- grugq 13y ago
  It is covered in the Complaint. Essentially someone using the alias FriendlyChemist (FC) gained illegal access to a vendor's account, and possibly to a lot more. This gave FC a large trove of PII on SilkRoad buyers and sellers (names, addresses, etc). FC attempted to blackmail Dread Pirate Roberts (DPR) saying he would release the information publicly unless DPR paid him $500,000... which he needed because he was in debt to his upstream drug supplier. DPR then asked to be put in contact with the upstream supplier so he could "sort something out". The timeline of events is here: http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/62928607375/dread-pirate-roberts-extortion-timeline http://grugq.tumblr.com/post/62928607375/dread-pirate-robert...
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    Sorry, I meant the question to be a bit more meta. You don't usually wake up and find yourself in "oh shit, I need a hitman" situations out of the blue. It takes some work to get there.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      Is the premise here that nobody should ever put themselves into situations where they cannot rely on law enforcement and the justice systems to resolve disputes and incidents? Shipping companies semi-frequently seem to find themselves in situations where the wake up and think "Oh shoot, I need to hire some mercenaries." It takes some work to get into that sort of situation, but does that imply that they shouldn't have gotten themselves into that pickle?

saraid216 13y ago

> (It doesn't still make me root for the FBI though) Denouncing one side does not require you to cheer for the other. Just FYI.

rayiner 13y ago

I find DPR to be a fascinating case study. Anarcho-libertarians often reject the use of force, except maybe in self-defense, on principle. But use of force is a fundamental interaction between organisms. It's one of the first modes of interactions young children come to understand. It's unrealistic to take it off the table. No matter how "civilized" you are, it's always lurking there as the most basic solution to conflicts. So here you have DPR, this smart, "civilized" guy. But when he's backed into a corner, he lashes out with violence just like any other animal would. In this case he didn't even have any reason to fear for his own life. He lashed out with violence to protect his material interests, just like an animal defending its kill.