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I don't think it's right that Twitter is being singled-out as the evil chauvinistic company out there, but it is undeniable that positions of power in Silicon V

by felipe 13y ago

I don't think it's right that Twitter is being singled-out as the evil chauvinistic company out there, but it is undeniable that positions of power in Silicon Valley are indeed reserved for the privileged white-male, and that's the focus of the NYT article [1], although it does use Twitter as a high-profile example. Would you deny that Silicon Valley's VC community is not a "old boys’ club" as the article describes? Would you deny that things are not tougher for women, persons of colour such as yourself, or latinos such as myself? You are right: It is not practical to force companies to distribute opportunities equally among genders / sexual preferences / ethnicities / races and whatnot. However, we cannot also simply ignore the problem in our industry because a solution is not available at first sight. Also, your own answer shows a bias against the author, dismissing her kind as "pseudo-intellectuals". That's exactly the kind of comment that makes technology such an unfriendly field for diversity in general. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/technology/as-tech-start-ups-surge-ahead-women-seem-to-be-left-behind.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/technology/as-tech-start-u...

parennoob 13y ago
Of course, things are probably going to be tougher for people who are not white males, and we should pragmatically try and do something to fix that. My point is that articles such as this do little or nothing to help, and often end up breeding resentment amongst groups of every race and gender. The journalism industry which writes these articles is often much less diverse and much less welcoming to outsiders than the tech industry that they are constantly criticizing and accusing of chauvinism and sexism. I do have a bias against these authors, because they tend to not have much to showcase in the way of their own forays into making any sort of technology stuff, and restrict themselves to writing about an industry whose fundamentals they probably don't understand.
- cupcake-unicorn 13y ago
  It sort of sounds from some of your posts that you think that there isn't as much of a problem with sexism in the tech industry as people make it out to be - is that correct? If you haven't been a woman in the tech industry it may be hard to understand. African American friends have told me things that I was shocked to hear about, and I could barely believe what I was hearing, given that I live in a very big, liberal city, in this day and age. It's very hard to put yourself in another's shoes like that if you haven't had the experience of living it - and moreso if you're a decent person who isn't sexist, racist, etc. and have a very hard time even imagining someone seriously showing that kind of bias.
  - felipe 13y ago
    > "given that I live in a very big, liberal city" I don't know what city you are referring to, but your post alludes to a good point which is the fact that people normally associate Silicon Valley and San Francisco as liberal, and this is very much a myth. San Francisco in specific is actually a very conservative city: Gays are accepted only in a limited area of the city, the homeless are taken as a tourist attraction, the educational system is biased towards privileged kids (for example: latino kids are excluded and bused around to other areas of the city), there is no modern urban planning such as a decent public transportation plan (BART sucks, MUNI sucks, Caltrain is not connected to BART for example) while areas such as Pacific Heights and Palo Alto love to talk about environmental issues but actively lobby for not allowing BART in their neighborhoods. Don't take me wrong: SF Bay Area is not a horrible place to live. All I am saying is that this notion that SF is liberal is wrong.
  - parennoob 13y ago
    > It sort of sounds from some of your posts that you think that there isn't as much of a problem with sexism in the tech industry as people make it out to be - is that correct? In a way. I believe that there is low participation of females in the tech industry workforce, but only a small part of it is due to chauvinistic sexism of the kind journalists typically write about in order to get good soundbites. A lot of it (I believe) is due to the low social respect accorded to people in science and technology in this society, the lonely basement-dwelling-male-nerd stereotype, etc. > It's very hard to put yourself in another's shoes like that if you haven't had the experience of living it To clarify, I have had people show overt or covert racist attitudes towards me (I'm a person of colour), but I don't believe that the outrage-hungry attitude of the journalist industry is going to do anything to cure them. Something else, like some of the staged experiments on Upworthy that showcase racial bias, or even reverse (anti-male) sexism can help spread awareness about our cultural biases.
wisty 13y ago
> Would you deny that things are not tougher for women, persons of colour such as yourself, or latinos such as myself? Studies suggest that most people will try really hard not to discriminate against women and blacks. People don't tend to get mad when Latinos are discriminated against (unless they are Latino). Asians / Indians also have to work twice as hard to get any credit. Some of the problems women and people of color have could be discrimination. But as the article says, not that many women get in on the ground floor. I think the soft sciences have a bit of an inferiority complex, in a way. They want to be like modern medicine, and find the root problem before they look for a solution. If the symptom is "not enough women in tech", maybe treating the symptom (getting more women into tech, and trying to remove the most immediate obstacles they face) might be more productive than looking for some deeper cause.

by felipe 13y ago

parennoob 13y ago

Of course, things are probably going to be tougher for people who are not white males, and we should pragmatically try and do something to fix that. My point is that articles such as this do little or nothing to help, and often end up breeding resentment amongst groups of every race and gender. The journalism industry which writes these articles is often much less diverse and much less welcoming to outsiders than the tech industry that they are constantly criticizing and accusing of chauvinism and sexism. I do have a bias against these authors, because they tend to not have much to showcase in the way of their own forays into making any sort of technology stuff, and restrict themselves to writing about an industry whose fundamentals they probably don't understand.

cupcake-unicorn 13y ago
It sort of sounds from some of your posts that you think that there isn't as much of a problem with sexism in the tech industry as people make it out to be - is that correct? If you haven't been a woman in the tech industry it may be hard to understand. African American friends have told me things that I was shocked to hear about, and I could barely believe what I was hearing, given that I live in a very big, liberal city, in this day and age. It's very hard to put yourself in another's shoes like that if you haven't had the experience of living it - and moreso if you're a decent person who isn't sexist, racist, etc. and have a very hard time even imagining someone seriously showing that kind of bias.
- felipe 13y ago
  > "given that I live in a very big, liberal city" I don't know what city you are referring to, but your post alludes to a good point which is the fact that people normally associate Silicon Valley and San Francisco as liberal, and this is very much a myth. San Francisco in specific is actually a very conservative city: Gays are accepted only in a limited area of the city, the homeless are taken as a tourist attraction, the educational system is biased towards privileged kids (for example: latino kids are excluded and bused around to other areas of the city), there is no modern urban planning such as a decent public transportation plan (BART sucks, MUNI sucks, Caltrain is not connected to BART for example) while areas such as Pacific Heights and Palo Alto love to talk about environmental issues but actively lobby for not allowing BART in their neighborhoods. Don't take me wrong: SF Bay Area is not a horrible place to live. All I am saying is that this notion that SF is liberal is wrong.
- parennoob 13y ago
  > It sort of sounds from some of your posts that you think that there isn't as much of a problem with sexism in the tech industry as people make it out to be - is that correct? In a way. I believe that there is low participation of females in the tech industry workforce, but only a small part of it is due to chauvinistic sexism of the kind journalists typically write about in order to get good soundbites. A lot of it (I believe) is due to the low social respect accorded to people in science and technology in this society, the lonely basement-dwelling-male-nerd stereotype, etc. > It's very hard to put yourself in another's shoes like that if you haven't had the experience of living it To clarify, I have had people show overt or covert racist attitudes towards me (I'm a person of colour), but I don't believe that the outrage-hungry attitude of the journalist industry is going to do anything to cure them. Something else, like some of the staged experiments on Upworthy that showcase racial bias, or even reverse (anti-male) sexism can help spread awareness about our cultural biases.

wisty 13y ago

> Would you deny that things are not tougher for women, persons of colour such as yourself, or latinos such as myself? Studies suggest that most people will try really hard not to discriminate against women and blacks. People don't tend to get mad when Latinos are discriminated against (unless they are Latino). Asians / Indians also have to work twice as hard to get any credit. Some of the problems women and people of color have could be discrimination. But as the article says, not that many women get in on the ground floor. I think the soft sciences have a bit of an inferiority complex, in a way. They want to be like modern medicine, and find the root problem before they look for a solution. If the symptom is "not enough women in tech", maybe treating the symptom (getting more women into tech, and trying to remove the most immediate obstacles they face) might be more productive than looking for some deeper cause.