4 ms·

This is shortsighted. Why not just give them money? We already spend money on waste management to collect the stuff. But no, we can't, then it'd be a handout.

by wonnage 13y ago

This is shortsighted. Why not just give them money? We already spend money on waste management to collect the stuff. But no, we can't, then it'd be a handout. And we, even community-minded people like Eric Dunn, can't stomach the thought of just giving people money. So we make them do pointless make-work, like collecting bottles. The middle class people you illogically rage against are the ones funding the poor indirectly (and convolutedly) through their waste. Why not cut out the misery and give them the money directly? IMO it's less respectful, more demeaning, to insist a street person dig through trash to collect a bunch of cans before we give them their daily bread.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Collecting bottles is hardly pointless. Recycling is a positive, both for "recycle" and "clean up bottle trash" and clearly some people are not motivated enough by the current CRV taxes. You could think of it as specialization.
- kansface 13y ago
  No one cares if they collect litter. People don't want hobos rummaging through their garbage. Stealing all of the bottles out of recycling bins is also not accomplishing anything.
  - tomsaffell 13y ago
    >People don't want hobos rummaging through their garbage I have no objection to them doing so at my house in SF. They few I've spoken to about it seemed very nice. >Stealing all of the bottles out of recycling bins... Are you sure it's stealing? AFAIK, it's only stealing if the bin is on/at the curb. I believe it's otherwise legal. >...out of recycling bins is also not accomplishing anything. The question is: is the system as a whole accomplishing anything? The removal of cans from residential bins is the unintended consequence of a wider rule, which has (according to the article) reduced litter levels in CA considerably. All systems have unintended consequences. What alternative system do you propose that reduces litter and increases recycling rates? What side effects does it have? Finally (I'm going out on a limb here): I don't think it's our place to judge. What I see when I look out the window is a person who has the determination and energy to push a heavy cart up a hill on a cold night, and yet a person who has -- despite those traits, which society values -- found themselves in an unenviable life position right now. When I see that paradox my reaction is to allow them their wish. Not because I do or don't approve of the system, but because I approve or hard work, and applying yourself, and because the very existence of their paradox assures me that I don't know enough to do anything other than make sure I'm not getting in their way.
    - gugol 13y ago
      Those people have psychological problems. They think that they are "hacking the system" and living for free while they can use that energy and hard work that you mention to live much better by integrating to society and following the system.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Even if it's not stealing (and I don't see any reason to actually call it that), it's nonetheless pretty close to pointless to move remove bottles and cans from recycling bins that will be picked up by a truck anyway into a shopping cart and drag them across town. It may be a slightly negative side-effect of an on-balance worthwhile policy, but it's odd to consider it positive when there are better ways to help people.
      - warfangle 13y ago
        > nonetheless pretty close to pointless to move remove bottles and cans from recycling bins that will be picked up by a truck anyway Not pointless: less curbside pickup volume per truck means you can run with less residential-serving trucks (less time trundling back and forth to a big recycling distribution center). It's a kind of ingenious way to decrease spending on municipal recycling collection, levying it on the consumers of the products apt for recycling directly. I actually wish the deposit were a little bit larger. What they do is enormously backbreaking and demoralizing work.
        kansface 13y ago
        The trucks will just be going to the new distribution center instead of the old one. Also, the article points out that this doesn't decrease spending since the city would otherwise make the money from the stolen cans.
        warfangle 13y ago
        When you put refuse to the curb, it's generally regarded as discarded. That word -- stolen -- doesn't mean what you think it means.
judk 13y ago
Do you have a citation for your claim against Eric Dunn? Also, how is it demeaning to pay someone for an honest day's work?
- icebraining 13y ago
  If it's work worth doing, shouldn't they be offered a job instead of having to fight rats, use old shopping cars and get hassled by the cops?
  - judk 13y ago
    Fighting rats is part of the job. You can't just legislate rays away. Entrepreneurs aren't offered jobs, they create jobs. Of course hassling from cops is trouble.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      You can't legislate rats away, but with appropriate tools you mostly can legislate the fight part away.
baddox 13y ago
Do "we" not give them money already? Do homeless people, or people in whatever situation these "street people" are in, not get money from the state or city? This is a serious question.
rhizome 13y ago
And we, even community-minded people like Eric Dunn, can't stomach the thought of just giving people money. Says who? Isn't Switzerland talking about doing just this, and doesn't Switzerland inarguably have a higher standard of living than the US?

by wonnage 13y ago

sliverstorm 13y ago

Collecting bottles is hardly pointless. Recycling is a positive, both for "recycle" and "clean up bottle trash" and clearly some people are not motivated enough by the current CRV taxes. You could think of it as specialization.

kansface 13y ago
No one cares if they collect litter. People don't want hobos rummaging through their garbage. Stealing all of the bottles out of recycling bins is also not accomplishing anything.
- tomsaffell 13y ago
  >People don't want hobos rummaging through their garbage I have no objection to them doing so at my house in SF. They few I've spoken to about it seemed very nice. >Stealing all of the bottles out of recycling bins... Are you sure it's stealing? AFAIK, it's only stealing if the bin is on/at the curb. I believe it's otherwise legal. >...out of recycling bins is also not accomplishing anything. The question is: is the system as a whole accomplishing anything? The removal of cans from residential bins is the unintended consequence of a wider rule, which has (according to the article) reduced litter levels in CA considerably. All systems have unintended consequences. What alternative system do you propose that reduces litter and increases recycling rates? What side effects does it have? Finally (I'm going out on a limb here): I don't think it's our place to judge. What I see when I look out the window is a person who has the determination and energy to push a heavy cart up a hill on a cold night, and yet a person who has -- despite those traits, which society values -- found themselves in an unenviable life position right now. When I see that paradox my reaction is to allow them their wish. Not because I do or don't approve of the system, but because I approve or hard work, and applying yourself, and because the very existence of their paradox assures me that I don't know enough to do anything other than make sure I'm not getting in their way.
  - gugol 13y ago
    Those people have psychological problems. They think that they are "hacking the system" and living for free while they can use that energy and hard work that you mention to live much better by integrating to society and following the system.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Even if it's not stealing (and I don't see any reason to actually call it that), it's nonetheless pretty close to pointless to move remove bottles and cans from recycling bins that will be picked up by a truck anyway into a shopping cart and drag them across town. It may be a slightly negative side-effect of an on-balance worthwhile policy, but it's odd to consider it positive when there are better ways to help people.
    - warfangle 13y ago
      > nonetheless pretty close to pointless to move remove bottles and cans from recycling bins that will be picked up by a truck anyway Not pointless: less curbside pickup volume per truck means you can run with less residential-serving trucks (less time trundling back and forth to a big recycling distribution center). It's a kind of ingenious way to decrease spending on municipal recycling collection, levying it on the consumers of the products apt for recycling directly. I actually wish the deposit were a little bit larger. What they do is enormously backbreaking and demoralizing work.
      - kansface 13y ago
        The trucks will just be going to the new distribution center instead of the old one. Also, the article points out that this doesn't decrease spending since the city would otherwise make the money from the stolen cans.
        warfangle 13y ago
        When you put refuse to the curb, it's generally regarded as discarded. That word -- stolen -- doesn't mean what you think it means.

judk 13y ago

Do you have a citation for your claim against Eric Dunn? Also, how is it demeaning to pay someone for an honest day's work?

icebraining 13y ago
If it's work worth doing, shouldn't they be offered a job instead of having to fight rats, use old shopping cars and get hassled by the cops?
- judk 13y ago
  Fighting rats is part of the job. You can't just legislate rays away. Entrepreneurs aren't offered jobs, they create jobs. Of course hassling from cops is trouble.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    You can't legislate rats away, but with appropriate tools you mostly can legislate the fight part away.

baddox 13y ago

Do "we" not give them money already? Do homeless people, or people in whatever situation these "street people" are in, not get money from the state or city? This is a serious question.

rhizome 13y ago

And we, even community-minded people like Eric Dunn, can't stomach the thought of just giving people money. Says who? Isn't Switzerland talking about doing just this, and doesn't Switzerland inarguably have a higher standard of living than the US?