4 ms·

You lied to customers to get something valuable from them (in this case, the information that they were prepared to pay you, and their engagement with your site

by gjm11 13y ago

You lied to customers to get something valuable from them (in this case, the information that they were prepared to pay you, and their engagement with your site). You used this, by your own account, to gain $4000. I wouldn't want to make a large bet that that isn't fraud and outright illegal. It probably isn't, unfortunately. But I hope your company fails. You should not get away with such behaviour. A decent person would learn from all the people here saying "This is not an acceptable way to behave", and issue an apology for boasting about how they made a profit from deceiving their customers. I wonder: are you a decent person?

davidw 13y ago
I don't think I would have done this either, but before beating up on Adii too much, have you ever spent a lot of time and/or money building something that no one wanted? It really, really sucks, and I can understand the strong drive to avoid it. To keep the discussion productive, I think we ought to look at similar ways to validate a product that more of us would be comfortable with. Edit actually, patio11's take on how to validate struck me as a pretty good approach: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/04/24/marketing-for-people-who-would-rather-be-building-stuff/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/04/24/marketing-for-people-who... It's pretty long, so if you find "This one day I went into a massage therapist, and asked" that's the start of the story. I disagree with him about 'The Lean Startup' though, I thought it was a bit too ... "high level".
adii 13y ago
You realize that the title is obviously exaggerated and that I didn't gain $4000 on day one. I did however gain the kind of validation that eventually allowed me to gain $4000 in cash when we launched a month later. For every person that has criticized this, I have had another one saying this is great. I also know for a fact that I'm not the first startup entrepreneur to do this. I have already apologized to each and every one of our customers. I have also mended the relationships (AFAIK) to the extent that the "angry" customers would consider being customers in future. Ultimately, I think that this was ballsy publishing this and being open about the pro's & cons of this. I'm not saying that this is the best technique ever and neither am I saying that everyone should follow this approach. I am however saying that it worked for us and I am keen to engage others on this topic.
- USNetizen 13y ago
  This is deception which and walks a fine line between legit and fraud. It doesn't matter what you think about who should do this or not - someone will attempt to emulate it, and they will end up in prison for taking money and not producing anything. It degrades the reputation of entrepreneurs everywhere who are diligently trying to build their businesses the RIGHT way. The fact that you brag about it so boastfully is atrocious to be honest.
  - adii 13y ago
    You did read that we never took anybody's money, right?
    - tinco 13y ago
      No one does, this is the internet. They found something wrong with your project and they're going to jump on it like flesh hounds. No one's going to mention a small detail like that you never took anyone's money or even that you never had malicious intent. These are Hacker News commenters, prototypal white knights eager to show off their perfect moral compasses, disregarding any opportunity for reflection or relativism.
      - davidw 13y ago
        I wonder how many of these people have actually built something and made a living from it? Or tried? Or spent months building something only to find out no one wanted it? No, it is not something I would have done, but I really understand the need to have some idea of what's going to work, and could see how one might go too far in pursuit of that.
        jamesk_au 13y ago
        I have done all of those things and I maintain the view that there is no reasonable justification for deliberate deception in commerce. A fortiori amongst startup entrepreneurs, who should be doing their best to foster collegial relationships with one another based on mutual trust and confidence - ironically, one of PublicBeta's own goals.

by gjm11 13y ago

davidw 13y ago

I don't think I would have done this either, but before beating up on Adii too much, have you ever spent a lot of time and/or money building something that no one wanted? It really, really sucks, and I can understand the strong drive to avoid it. To keep the discussion productive, I think we ought to look at similar ways to validate a product that more of us would be comfortable with. Edit actually, patio11's take on how to validate struck me as a pretty good approach: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/04/24/marketing-for-people-who-would-rather-be-building-stuff/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2013/04/24/marketing-for-people-who... It's pretty long, so if you find "This one day I went into a massage therapist, and asked" that's the start of the story. I disagree with him about 'The Lean Startup' though, I thought it was a bit too ... "high level".

adii 13y ago

You realize that the title is obviously exaggerated and that I didn't gain $4000 on day one. I did however gain the kind of validation that eventually allowed me to gain $4000 in cash when we launched a month later. For every person that has criticized this, I have had another one saying this is great. I also know for a fact that I'm not the first startup entrepreneur to do this. I have already apologized to each and every one of our customers. I have also mended the relationships (AFAIK) to the extent that the "angry" customers would consider being customers in future. Ultimately, I think that this was ballsy publishing this and being open about the pro's & cons of this. I'm not saying that this is the best technique ever and neither am I saying that everyone should follow this approach. I am however saying that it worked for us and I am keen to engage others on this topic.

USNetizen 13y ago
This is deception which and walks a fine line between legit and fraud. It doesn't matter what you think about who should do this or not - someone will attempt to emulate it, and they will end up in prison for taking money and not producing anything. It degrades the reputation of entrepreneurs everywhere who are diligently trying to build their businesses the RIGHT way. The fact that you brag about it so boastfully is atrocious to be honest.
- adii 13y ago
  You did read that we never took anybody's money, right?
  - tinco 13y ago
    No one does, this is the internet. They found something wrong with your project and they're going to jump on it like flesh hounds. No one's going to mention a small detail like that you never took anyone's money or even that you never had malicious intent. These are Hacker News commenters, prototypal white knights eager to show off their perfect moral compasses, disregarding any opportunity for reflection or relativism.
    - davidw 13y ago
      I wonder how many of these people have actually built something and made a living from it? Or tried? Or spent months building something only to find out no one wanted it? No, it is not something I would have done, but I really understand the need to have some idea of what's going to work, and could see how one might go too far in pursuit of that.
      - jamesk_au 13y ago
        I have done all of those things and I maintain the view that there is no reasonable justification for deliberate deception in commerce. A fortiori amongst startup entrepreneurs, who should be doing their best to foster collegial relationships with one another based on mutual trust and confidence - ironically, one of PublicBeta's own goals.