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So are we to "Free Ross" because he was a great guy who had people killed? Ran a site dedicating to breaking laws? What thing are we supposed to be sad he got b

by drakaal 13y ago

So are we to "Free Ross" because he was a great guy who had people killed? Ran a site dedicating to breaking laws? What thing are we supposed to be sad he got busted for? My expectation is if he hadn't tried to have someone killed that it would have been deemed that SilkRoad was a better way to track dealers down than it was at promoting sales. Normally the feds would have taken over the site, tracked its users then made 100 busts at once. I think Murder sped that up a lot. I don't feel sorry for Ulbircht at all.

MichaelGG 13y ago
Firstly, I'm unaware of anyone actually being killed. He "ordered hits" but it appears that no murders happened. As far as taking over the site to make 100 busts... First, SR doesn't know the identities of the buyers or sellers. Unless you deliberately give your identity in plaintext to SR, they don't have that info. Now some lazy users may have decided to avoid PGP, but those probably aren't people the "feds" are interested in going after. Grab 100 kids for possession charges? Not too interesting. (Edit: Except maybe as a deterrent, and even then, it's really just and advertisement for PGP.) Dealers have no reason ever to publish their info. The way to compromise them is to sign up for lots of buyer accounts, order from the most prolific sellers, then try to correlate packages back to a shipper. That'll depend entirely on the opsec of the sellers, and isn't as likely to generate the same PR that taking down SR did. Finally, the laws he helped people break (drug laws) are ridiculous and plenty of hacker-minded people view fighting such laws to be ethical. Edit: Also, LE can't become a big seller and try to make busts on big users (say, people buying 20 pounds of a substance at once), because they'd actually have to sell illegal drugs in significant volume to get reputation. I think they are prohibited from doing that. They may be able to get a large-scale seller to turn over their account (if they found them somehow), then accept some large orders and bust those buyers without shipping. But, it'd be hard to prove the identity of the buyer. Anyone could sign up and order a delivery for someone else.
- pallandt 13y ago
  I think we should be thankful that no one was actually killed and that apparently the hired hitmen were law enforcement. The supposed kills were real for him though having even received (fake) confirmation from a contractor and the intent to take another person's life is not excusable or justifiable. I also believe many people have suffered due to unjust drug laws, but this guy took his 'mission' to a whole different level. Also, I sincerely doubt he would've continued the project out of sheer humanitarian kindness if it hadn't turned out to be highly profitable for him as well. This person needs to stop being glorified.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Not saying I support him, just providing justification why a "Free Ross" concept might exist and draw significant support. There's also the chance he knew he wasn't actually hiring hitmen, and just figured it was a good way to pretend to be really serious. Not a bright move as far as having charges on him after being caught, but I get the feeling he was operating as if he'd never get caught, or if he did, he'd be so screwed that additional charges wouldn't matter.
- drakaal 13y ago
  How do you think they pulled off https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/10/feds-arrest-alleged-top-silk-road-drug-seller/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/10/feds-arrest-alleged-top-... Yes, LE can sell drugs to catch dealers. Awesome I know. We don't know if he just bragged that he had someone killed or if he really did have someone killed. LE was clearly aware of things for a while if they could get enough reputation to be a Hitman, I figure they can get enough reputation to sell drugs... I mean scale of 1 to 10 which is harder?
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    Hah, no the complaint filed[1] shows nothing of the sort. You literally just made up the line about selling. In this seller bust, they located some packages, supposedly by a narcotics dog, noticed they all shared the same handwriting, fake return address, and stamps. Over months, they tried to trace back who sent the packages, including asking post office workers to be on the lookout. Some post office workers remember seeing a distinct person "blonde female". From there, it was basic footwork as they watched them mail more and more packages. The only thing the government agents did was coerce a buyer to make some purchases, so they'd have a known purchase to link "NOD" and the suspect they had. They didn't sell drugs or anything of the sort. This just underscores what I said: It depends on the operating parameters of the sellers. If they are mailing a high volume of packages a week, it'll take some strict procedures to avoid creating the sort of profile that is noticeable. As far as "rep to be a hitman", I've no idea what you're talking about. The supposed hits weren't placed over SR. 1: http://cryptome.org/2013/10/sadler-white-complaint.pdf http://cryptome.org/2013/10/sadler-white-complaint.pdf
betterunix 13y ago
"So are we to "Free Ross" because he was a great guy who had people killed? Ran a site dedicating to breaking laws?" Nice juxtaposition there. Most people will agree that ordering hits is bad. Running a marketplace for selling drugs, on the other hand...

by drakaal 13y ago

MichaelGG 13y ago

Firstly, I'm unaware of anyone actually being killed. He "ordered hits" but it appears that no murders happened. As far as taking over the site to make 100 busts... First, SR doesn't know the identities of the buyers or sellers. Unless you deliberately give your identity in plaintext to SR, they don't have that info. Now some lazy users may have decided to avoid PGP, but those probably aren't people the "feds" are interested in going after. Grab 100 kids for possession charges? Not too interesting. (Edit: Except maybe as a deterrent, and even then, it's really just and advertisement for PGP.) Dealers have no reason ever to publish their info. The way to compromise them is to sign up for lots of buyer accounts, order from the most prolific sellers, then try to correlate packages back to a shipper. That'll depend entirely on the opsec of the sellers, and isn't as likely to generate the same PR that taking down SR did. Finally, the laws he helped people break (drug laws) are ridiculous and plenty of hacker-minded people view fighting such laws to be ethical. Edit: Also, LE can't become a big seller and try to make busts on big users (say, people buying 20 pounds of a substance at once), because they'd actually have to sell illegal drugs in significant volume to get reputation. I think they are prohibited from doing that. They may be able to get a large-scale seller to turn over their account (if they found them somehow), then accept some large orders and bust those buyers without shipping. But, it'd be hard to prove the identity of the buyer. Anyone could sign up and order a delivery for someone else.

pallandt 13y ago
I think we should be thankful that no one was actually killed and that apparently the hired hitmen were law enforcement. The supposed kills were real for him though having even received (fake) confirmation from a contractor and the intent to take another person's life is not excusable or justifiable. I also believe many people have suffered due to unjust drug laws, but this guy took his 'mission' to a whole different level. Also, I sincerely doubt he would've continued the project out of sheer humanitarian kindness if it hadn't turned out to be highly profitable for him as well. This person needs to stop being glorified.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Not saying I support him, just providing justification why a "Free Ross" concept might exist and draw significant support. There's also the chance he knew he wasn't actually hiring hitmen, and just figured it was a good way to pretend to be really serious. Not a bright move as far as having charges on him after being caught, but I get the feeling he was operating as if he'd never get caught, or if he did, he'd be so screwed that additional charges wouldn't matter.
drakaal 13y ago
How do you think they pulled off https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/10/feds-arrest-alleged-top-silk-road-drug-seller/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/10/feds-arrest-alleged-top-... Yes, LE can sell drugs to catch dealers. Awesome I know. We don't know if he just bragged that he had someone killed or if he really did have someone killed. LE was clearly aware of things for a while if they could get enough reputation to be a Hitman, I figure they can get enough reputation to sell drugs... I mean scale of 1 to 10 which is harder?
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  Hah, no the complaint filed[1] shows nothing of the sort. You literally just made up the line about selling. In this seller bust, they located some packages, supposedly by a narcotics dog, noticed they all shared the same handwriting, fake return address, and stamps. Over months, they tried to trace back who sent the packages, including asking post office workers to be on the lookout. Some post office workers remember seeing a distinct person "blonde female". From there, it was basic footwork as they watched them mail more and more packages. The only thing the government agents did was coerce a buyer to make some purchases, so they'd have a known purchase to link "NOD" and the suspect they had. They didn't sell drugs or anything of the sort. This just underscores what I said: It depends on the operating parameters of the sellers. If they are mailing a high volume of packages a week, it'll take some strict procedures to avoid creating the sort of profile that is noticeable. As far as "rep to be a hitman", I've no idea what you're talking about. The supposed hits weren't placed over SR. 1: http://cryptome.org/2013/10/sadler-white-complaint.pdf http://cryptome.org/2013/10/sadler-white-complaint.pdf

betterunix 13y ago

"So are we to "Free Ross" because he was a great guy who had people killed? Ran a site dedicating to breaking laws?" Nice juxtaposition there. Most people will agree that ordering hits is bad. Running a marketplace for selling drugs, on the other hand...