5 ms·

I don't think you're thinking this through. Using "he" as the neuter is not assuming the subject is masculine. It's reusing "he" for another purpose. It's one w

by benaiah 13y ago

I don't think you're thinking this through. Using "he" as the neuter is not assuming the subject is masculine. It's reusing "he" for another purpose. It's one word with two meanings. It's fine if you don't want to use it, but it's not inappropriate or sexist when others do.

bjourne 13y ago
That is exactly the same logic that people who use "gay" as a derogatory term uses. But it is wrong as it adds connotations to a word where none should be, such as gay=bad and he=the norm. Ask yourself why you would want to use imprecise language that can be misunderstood when exact alternatives are available?
- benaiah 13y ago
  If I may be frank: you're completely missing the point. You're the one adding masculine connotations to a usage that is well-established, well-documented, and connotationless. When someone uses "he" that way, it isn't masculine. That's my entire point, which the rest of the thread seems to have grasped. There's plenty of evidence for it. I know "he" isn't the most common usage, but it is still acceptable (and is probably more common than you realize). I don't think it needs to be the common usage, and I have no problems with the other techniques for a gender neutral English pronoun. There's no offense, and no implied masculinity. Why would I want to use this idiom? Because to my ears, and in my brain, the other usages don't feel right. They seem awkward and contrived, and break the flow of writing. It just bugs me - just like "he" seems to bug you. However, I don't go around telling people who use "they" or "he/she" that they should be using "he" - it's their choice, since it's their writing. I'd appreciate it if you'd grant the same courtesy. Stated another, simpler, way: the same word can have different meanings depending on context. (The word "tie" means both a large, square, wooden pole used in railroad tracks and a decorative piece of men's formal attire). This is one example of that. "He" has two meanings: one masculine, one neuter. This is an example of the neuter usage, and doesn't have a masculine connotation. It's important to realize that language isn't a fixed thing, that different people will use it differently, and that's okay. Different dialects exist, and that's okay. Different styles seem fluid or awkward to different writers, and that's okay. Chill out, it's not hurting anybody, and an overreaction like this isn't helping "women in programming" or "non-discrimination in language" or any other cause that you want to champion. I'm not stereotyping women, I'm not claiming the superiority of men, I'm not describing things in offensive or discriminatory terms. I'm using a pronoun. That's it. Sometimes a pronoun is just a pronoun. You're not going to be able to fix every little thing that you consider sexist, because people are human. I absolutely advocate improving the situation, but I acknowledge that it will never be perfect. Perhaps your effort would be better spent arguing against actual sexism instead of leaping at every little thing that just might be discriminatory even when it's clearly not.
  - bjourne 13y ago
    Then by the same token you should have no problem using "gay" as a general derogatory term. You happened to not address that point. If you can't see why using gay both as the label for male homosexuals and for bad stuff, then it is not strange that you can't see why using gender neutral pronouns are important. Language shapes thoughts. Correct language makes correct thoughts, incorrect language incorrect thoughts. Which is why most people still have problems with riddles like these http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2005/06/21/the-doctors-son/ http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2005/06/21/the-docto....
    - benaiah 13y ago
      Just because I think words can have different meanings by no means implies that I think any meaning of any word is valid. So my correct, formally acceptable use of "he" implies nothing about my opinions on the slang, informal derogatory use of "gay". That's nonsensical. Again, you seem to be missing the point. I'm not using non-gender-neutral pronouns. "He" is gender neutral, and there is plenty of evidence supporting that. I agree: gender neutral pronouns are important. They're necessary for using the language. "He" is one gender-neutral option among others. That's why it's use by the OP was perfectly acceptable. I'm not sure why you think that riddle even resembles relevancy, but it doesn't. There's no incorrect language here, all there is an oversensitive overreaction to a normal , unoffensive, formal, well-used idiom. I immediately grasp that the doctor is the patient's mother. Using "he" is not going to change that. Just give it a rest. You're getting pretty desperate at this point.
      - bjourne 13y ago
        "Gay" as a derogatory term is common in English. You can find it in most dictionaries and it is neither slang nor "informal" (whatever that means). Here is the thing. If you can accept that "gay" as a derogatory term is incorrect, despite it being present in dictionaries then it's a small step to question other word usages in dictionaries. It allows you to think for yourself instead of just parroting "he is gender neutral" because you read it in a book.

by benaiah 13y ago

bjourne 13y ago

That is exactly the same logic that people who use "gay" as a derogatory term uses. But it is wrong as it adds connotations to a word where none should be, such as gay=bad and he=the norm. Ask yourself why you would want to use imprecise language that can be misunderstood when exact alternatives are available?

benaiah 13y ago
If I may be frank: you're completely missing the point. You're the one adding masculine connotations to a usage that is well-established, well-documented, and connotationless. When someone uses "he" that way, it isn't masculine. That's my entire point, which the rest of the thread seems to have grasped. There's plenty of evidence for it. I know "he" isn't the most common usage, but it is still acceptable (and is probably more common than you realize). I don't think it needs to be the common usage, and I have no problems with the other techniques for a gender neutral English pronoun. There's no offense, and no implied masculinity. Why would I want to use this idiom? Because to my ears, and in my brain, the other usages don't feel right. They seem awkward and contrived, and break the flow of writing. It just bugs me - just like "he" seems to bug you. However, I don't go around telling people who use "they" or "he/she" that they should be using "he" - it's their choice, since it's their writing. I'd appreciate it if you'd grant the same courtesy. Stated another, simpler, way: the same word can have different meanings depending on context. (The word "tie" means both a large, square, wooden pole used in railroad tracks and a decorative piece of men's formal attire). This is one example of that. "He" has two meanings: one masculine, one neuter. This is an example of the neuter usage, and doesn't have a masculine connotation. It's important to realize that language isn't a fixed thing, that different people will use it differently, and that's okay. Different dialects exist, and that's okay. Different styles seem fluid or awkward to different writers, and that's okay. Chill out, it's not hurting anybody, and an overreaction like this isn't helping "women in programming" or "non-discrimination in language" or any other cause that you want to champion. I'm not stereotyping women, I'm not claiming the superiority of men, I'm not describing things in offensive or discriminatory terms. I'm using a pronoun. That's it. Sometimes a pronoun is just a pronoun. You're not going to be able to fix every little thing that you consider sexist, because people are human. I absolutely advocate improving the situation, but I acknowledge that it will never be perfect. Perhaps your effort would be better spent arguing against actual sexism instead of leaping at every little thing that just might be discriminatory even when it's clearly not.
- bjourne 13y ago
  Then by the same token you should have no problem using "gay" as a general derogatory term. You happened to not address that point. If you can't see why using gay both as the label for male homosexuals and for bad stuff, then it is not strange that you can't see why using gender neutral pronouns are important. Language shapes thoughts. Correct language makes correct thoughts, incorrect language incorrect thoughts. Which is why most people still have problems with riddles like these http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2005/06/21/the-doctors-son/ http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2005/06/21/the-docto....
  - benaiah 13y ago
    Just because I think words can have different meanings by no means implies that I think any meaning of any word is valid. So my correct, formally acceptable use of "he" implies nothing about my opinions on the slang, informal derogatory use of "gay". That's nonsensical. Again, you seem to be missing the point. I'm not using non-gender-neutral pronouns. "He" is gender neutral, and there is plenty of evidence supporting that. I agree: gender neutral pronouns are important. They're necessary for using the language. "He" is one gender-neutral option among others. That's why it's use by the OP was perfectly acceptable. I'm not sure why you think that riddle even resembles relevancy, but it doesn't. There's no incorrect language here, all there is an oversensitive overreaction to a normal , unoffensive, formal, well-used idiom. I immediately grasp that the doctor is the patient's mother. Using "he" is not going to change that. Just give it a rest. You're getting pretty desperate at this point.
    - bjourne 13y ago
      "Gay" as a derogatory term is common in English. You can find it in most dictionaries and it is neither slang nor "informal" (whatever that means). Here is the thing. If you can accept that "gay" as a derogatory term is incorrect, despite it being present in dictionaries then it's a small step to question other word usages in dictionaries. It allows you to think for yourself instead of just parroting "he is gender neutral" because you read it in a book.