50 ms·

It's a cycle of awesomeness. I'm not convinced... It's an interesting article, but it seems to me this cycle can just as easily devolve into mental masturbatio

by swombat 17y ago

It's a cycle of awesomeness. I'm not convinced... It's an interesting article, but it seems to me this cycle can just as easily devolve into mental masturbation. "I'm thinking X. Am I thinking this because Y or Z? What's the meaning of thought anyway?" Keep doing this for too long and you might turn into some kind of philosopher. Now, I agree that some self-examination is essential (as Socrates put it, the unexamined life is not worth living), but I'd argue that what's needed is a balance between thinking and doing. And doing requires putting aside all those fabulous thoughts and focusing on the task at hand for a while. The two are not exclusive, nor is one superior to the other. They are a bit like Reason and Passion in Khalil Gibran's writings (http://www.katsandogz.com/onreason.html http://www.katsandogz.com/onreason.html): Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul. If either your sails or your rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas. For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction. Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion, that it may sing; And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes. I would have you consider your judgment and your appetite even as you would two loved guests in your house. Surely you would not honour one guest above the other; for he who is more mindful of one loses the love and the faith of both. Among the hills, when you sit in the cool shade of the white poplars, sharing the peace and serenity of distant fields and meadows -- then let your heart say in silence, "God rests in reason." And when the storm comes, and the mighty wind shakes the forest, and thunder and lightning proclaim the majesty of the sky -- then let your heart say in awe, "God moves in passion." And since you are a breath in God's sphere, and a leaf in God's forest, you too should rest in reason and move in passion.

kirse 17y ago
"I'm thinking X. Am I thinking this because Y or Z? What's the meaning of thought anyway?" In the thought example about the "Milk" in the article I found myself asking "Who does that?" and now I'm wondering if that helps further explain to me how women tend to think into things. I'm curious to know here who would have gone onto thought #3 in the milk example? If I'm enjoying something I'm simply enjoying it... I'm not trying to determine if I'm really NOT enjoying it and thus trying to convince myself that I AM enjoying it.
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  Haven't you ever come out of a situation and, at the end, when it was all said and done, realized that you had talked/fooled yourself into it? Self-congratulatory tones can be indicators of something that is very bad. It's important to not get high on your own supply. A lot of what we tell ourselves is wrong, or at least misguided. If you question your own intentions and observations, you can avoid making big mistakes. For example, I know lots of people who tell themselves "I didn't get what I want because x." where x is something that is obviously completely beyond their control, and therefore not their problem/responsibility. But if you want to protect your ego, telling yourself that it's because of x-ism is totally effective. It also cripples you. Which is why you have to ask yourself, "What's my motive here?" and "What do I have to lose if I think about it from a different perspective?" Also, considering most of the people who have promoted self-examination and self-understanding over the years have been men, your bit about women is somewhat disingenuous.
  - kirse 17y ago
    -- Haven't you ever come out of a situation and, at the end, when it was all said and done, realized that you had talked/fooled yourself into it? No. Before I ever enter a situation I already know whether or not I need to convince myself. I'm pretty aware of my own intuition, and the more I need to "talk myself" into doing something the more I'll question myself before I skip over my gut instinct. It's been extremely rare when I've come out of a situation where I trusted my intuition and been unhappy with the result. On the other hand, I've had many times where I overrode my intuition and thought "damn, should have trusted myself" -- It's important to not get high on your own supply. I don't. It's called being proactive and is functionally similar to the techniques of mindfulness. Steven Covey writes about it in his first chapter of "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". And please, entrepreneurs ignore reality more than most people I've ever known. Start up a business against all odds... convincing yourself to keep going with an idea even though you haven't succeeded after years? How is that NOT being high on your own supply? -- If you question your own intentions and observations, you can avoid making big mistakes. This is the big fallacy of questioning your every thought and intention. If only I could just monitor every thought, every motive, question my every step, then I could do it perfectly -- I would avoid the big mistakes. Wrong. You might have perfectly reasoned every thought, justified every intention, and still fail simply because you didn't have all the information. So with that in mind, that's why it's much better to simply DO. Ensure one's intuition is in agreement and then DO, don't think into it. Mistakes are going to happen anyway, and that's when you'll do the reflecting.
ahoyhere 17y ago
Thanks for quoting that, I'd never heard of Khalil Gibran and I'm going to check out his stuff now. I totally agree with your premise (there must be balance), but I do disagree with your interpretation of my essay. There's a difference between paralyzing yourself with uber-analysis, and digging deeper than level 1. And there's a reason I didn't have "What's the meaning of thought, anyway?" as an example :) You don't know me, but I'm exceedingly practical and a pretty emotionally integrated person. And a large part of that I attribute to exactly what I wrote about. If I want to just sit there and wank off mentally forever, and not act, well, I'm aware that I'm doing it... because I am present in my own thoughts. As Pema Chodron writes, if we pay attention to ourselves, "even if we shut down, we can no longer shut down in ignorance. We see very clearly that we're closing off. That in itself begins to illuminate the darkness of ignorance." As a bonus, it helps me innovate in design/development where other people just copy one another, working off the same tired old templates. That's really why I wrote it. I'm tired of every piece of software not just looking, but acting the same, with the same components, and same shortcuts. With people thinking they have a new idea, when all that they really have is the same idea other people have had, but it feels special because it's in their head -- and lacking the framework/habits to judge "Is feeling special to me the same thing as feeling special?" This problem is rampant everywhere, even on HN.
- swombat 17y ago
  Do check out Khalil Gibran, specifically his philosophical poetry book "The Prophet" (you should be able to find it for under $10 in any decent bookstore). While it is coated in pseudo-religious (and quite pretty) language, like the part I quoted, it is chock-full of really interesting ideas that are worth pondering whether or not you have religious inclinations.

by swombat 17y ago

kirse 17y ago

"I'm thinking X. Am I thinking this because Y or Z? What's the meaning of thought anyway?" In the thought example about the "Milk" in the article I found myself asking "Who does that?" and now I'm wondering if that helps further explain to me how women tend to think into things. I'm curious to know here who would have gone onto thought #3 in the milk example? If I'm enjoying something I'm simply enjoying it... I'm not trying to determine if I'm really NOT enjoying it and thus trying to convince myself that I AM enjoying it.

ahoyhere 17y ago
Haven't you ever come out of a situation and, at the end, when it was all said and done, realized that you had talked/fooled yourself into it? Self-congratulatory tones can be indicators of something that is very bad. It's important to not get high on your own supply. A lot of what we tell ourselves is wrong, or at least misguided. If you question your own intentions and observations, you can avoid making big mistakes. For example, I know lots of people who tell themselves "I didn't get what I want because x." where x is something that is obviously completely beyond their control, and therefore not their problem/responsibility. But if you want to protect your ego, telling yourself that it's because of x-ism is totally effective. It also cripples you. Which is why you have to ask yourself, "What's my motive here?" and "What do I have to lose if I think about it from a different perspective?" Also, considering most of the people who have promoted self-examination and self-understanding over the years have been men, your bit about women is somewhat disingenuous.
- kirse 17y ago
  -- Haven't you ever come out of a situation and, at the end, when it was all said and done, realized that you had talked/fooled yourself into it? No. Before I ever enter a situation I already know whether or not I need to convince myself. I'm pretty aware of my own intuition, and the more I need to "talk myself" into doing something the more I'll question myself before I skip over my gut instinct. It's been extremely rare when I've come out of a situation where I trusted my intuition and been unhappy with the result. On the other hand, I've had many times where I overrode my intuition and thought "damn, should have trusted myself" -- It's important to not get high on your own supply. I don't. It's called being proactive and is functionally similar to the techniques of mindfulness. Steven Covey writes about it in his first chapter of "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". And please, entrepreneurs ignore reality more than most people I've ever known. Start up a business against all odds... convincing yourself to keep going with an idea even though you haven't succeeded after years? How is that NOT being high on your own supply? -- If you question your own intentions and observations, you can avoid making big mistakes. This is the big fallacy of questioning your every thought and intention. If only I could just monitor every thought, every motive, question my every step, then I could do it perfectly -- I would avoid the big mistakes. Wrong. You might have perfectly reasoned every thought, justified every intention, and still fail simply because you didn't have all the information. So with that in mind, that's why it's much better to simply DO. Ensure one's intuition is in agreement and then DO, don't think into it. Mistakes are going to happen anyway, and that's when you'll do the reflecting.

ahoyhere 17y ago

Thanks for quoting that, I'd never heard of Khalil Gibran and I'm going to check out his stuff now. I totally agree with your premise (there must be balance), but I do disagree with your interpretation of my essay. There's a difference between paralyzing yourself with uber-analysis, and digging deeper than level 1. And there's a reason I didn't have "What's the meaning of thought, anyway?" as an example :) You don't know me, but I'm exceedingly practical and a pretty emotionally integrated person. And a large part of that I attribute to exactly what I wrote about. If I want to just sit there and wank off mentally forever, and not act, well, I'm aware that I'm doing it... because I am present in my own thoughts. As Pema Chodron writes, if we pay attention to ourselves, "even if we shut down, we can no longer shut down in ignorance. We see very clearly that we're closing off. That in itself begins to illuminate the darkness of ignorance." As a bonus, it helps me innovate in design/development where other people just copy one another, working off the same tired old templates. That's really why I wrote it. I'm tired of every piece of software not just looking, but acting the same, with the same components, and same shortcuts. With people thinking they have a new idea, when all that they really have is the same idea other people have had, but it feels special because it's in their head -- and lacking the framework/habits to judge "Is feeling special to me the same thing as feeling special?" This problem is rampant everywhere, even on HN.

swombat 17y ago
Do check out Khalil Gibran, specifically his philosophical poetry book "The Prophet" (you should be able to find it for under $10 in any decent bookstore). While it is coated in pseudo-religious (and quite pretty) language, like the part I quoted, it is chock-full of really interesting ideas that are worth pondering whether or not you have religious inclinations.