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A meta-comment, which I'm separating from my main reply: Rather a lot of the comments here seem to be reacting to this in ways that boil down to "Feminism is un

by Steuard 13y ago

A meta-comment, which I'm separating from my main reply: Rather a lot of the comments here seem to be reacting to this in ways that boil down to "Feminism is unfair to men!" For anyone out there who hasn't studied much of this stuff, let me warn you to be cautious buying in to those arguments. They can sound persuasively like justice; I used to nod and mutter "Yeah!" to them myself. But I have eventually recognized that if we want to achieve that goal of true equality that we all want, women have one heck of a lot more catching up to do than men.

johngalt 13y ago
>... women have one heck of a lot more catching up to do than men May I ask what criteria you used to come to that conclusion? What do you use to measure equality? You seem to have analyzed both sides and I'm curious to hear how you arrived at your conclusion.
- Steuard 13y ago
  Unfortunately, I don't have any quick answer to this ready to hand, and I don't have remotely enough spare time right now to try and write a long one. I know that sounds like dodging the question, and maybe it is. But I see it as a symptom of myself feeling like I'm only in the early stages of really understanding this stuff. Given all that, here's one glimpse of how I'd start to answer your question (meant only to point in the right direction, since I don't have time to build a convincing case). I think I'd say that my active definition of "equality" is something not far from "equality of opportunity" and perhaps also "equality in everyday experience". Our society seems to inhibit women from taking the same risks that it allows for men. Some of that is formalized (e.g. women in the US Army haven't been allowed to serve on the front lines) but a lot of it is buried deep in societal attitudes. I couldn't begin to trace how that happens, but everyone seems to agree on the result: men are overrepresented at the upper and lower ends of society. In our system, women are systematically "sheltered", which sounds nice, but it means that they are prevented from living up to their true potential, and that can be soul-killing. The "everyday experience" side is (I think) closely related to that on some deep level, but probably feels quite different on the surface. It's hard to summarize, but basically I'm thinking about the many ways that women in our society are forced into a defensive mindset when they go about their daily lives. An anecdote (presented to me as true when I saw it) may illustrate the idea: A high school teacher asked her class to imagine that they were in a shopping mall late at night and had to walk to their car on the far side of the parking lot alone: what precautions would they take on their way there? The guys in the class wanted clarification: was this mall in a bad part of town? Had they seen someone dangerous hanging around to make them worried? And so on: they wanted to know why they were taking precautions. Meanwhile, every single girl had already gotten well into a long list: "Carry my keys in my fist." "Watch under nearby cars." "Have my phone out." "No way I'm going alone: find someone to walk me out there." "I always park under bright lights close to a door." The lists go on and on. That's just one illustration, but I hope it captures the basic idea that I'm trying to describe. (To be clear, the threat of violence is a big part of this "equality of everyday experience" factor, but far from all of it. I think that there are big doses of "hard to get taken seriously as a professional" mixed in with it, too, for example.) [The same sort of thing happens in other contexts, too: e.g. how Levar Burton always puts his hands in view outside of the car when he's pulled over by the police http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/01/levar-burton-explains-his-ritual-to-prevent-being-shot-by-police/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/01/levar-burton-explains-... ]

by Steuard 13y ago

johngalt 13y ago

>... women have one heck of a lot more catching up to do than men May I ask what criteria you used to come to that conclusion? What do you use to measure equality? You seem to have analyzed both sides and I'm curious to hear how you arrived at your conclusion.

Steuard 13y ago
Unfortunately, I don't have any quick answer to this ready to hand, and I don't have remotely enough spare time right now to try and write a long one. I know that sounds like dodging the question, and maybe it is. But I see it as a symptom of myself feeling like I'm only in the early stages of really understanding this stuff. Given all that, here's one glimpse of how I'd start to answer your question (meant only to point in the right direction, since I don't have time to build a convincing case). I think I'd say that my active definition of "equality" is something not far from "equality of opportunity" and perhaps also "equality in everyday experience". Our society seems to inhibit women from taking the same risks that it allows for men. Some of that is formalized (e.g. women in the US Army haven't been allowed to serve on the front lines) but a lot of it is buried deep in societal attitudes. I couldn't begin to trace how that happens, but everyone seems to agree on the result: men are overrepresented at the upper and lower ends of society. In our system, women are systematically "sheltered", which sounds nice, but it means that they are prevented from living up to their true potential, and that can be soul-killing. The "everyday experience" side is (I think) closely related to that on some deep level, but probably feels quite different on the surface. It's hard to summarize, but basically I'm thinking about the many ways that women in our society are forced into a defensive mindset when they go about their daily lives. An anecdote (presented to me as true when I saw it) may illustrate the idea: A high school teacher asked her class to imagine that they were in a shopping mall late at night and had to walk to their car on the far side of the parking lot alone: what precautions would they take on their way there? The guys in the class wanted clarification: was this mall in a bad part of town? Had they seen someone dangerous hanging around to make them worried? And so on: they wanted to know why they were taking precautions. Meanwhile, every single girl had already gotten well into a long list: "Carry my keys in my fist." "Watch under nearby cars." "Have my phone out." "No way I'm going alone: find someone to walk me out there." "I always park under bright lights close to a door." The lists go on and on. That's just one illustration, but I hope it captures the basic idea that I'm trying to describe. (To be clear, the threat of violence is a big part of this "equality of everyday experience" factor, but far from all of it. I think that there are big doses of "hard to get taken seriously as a professional" mixed in with it, too, for example.) [The same sort of thing happens in other contexts, too: e.g. how Levar Burton always puts his hands in view outside of the car when he's pulled over by the police http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/01/levar-burton-explains-his-ritual-to-prevent-being-shot-by-police/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/01/levar-burton-explains-... ]