4 ms·

The real troll is that people use bitcoins

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
lnanek2 13y ago
Hey, the price was going up like nuts until recently. If you had bought in or mined early, you'd be rich. Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was. Would have been good to have a short position for this.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  Can be confiscated? Not if the owner was paying attention. All that would be necessary is for an accomplice to have a copy of the wallet.dat file, in any form. In which case the coins could be moved out from under their noses. As someone who thinks the feds abuse their forfeiture power on a regular basis, seeing them have a hard time makes me laugh.
  - betterunix 13y ago
    How is this better than paper money? Store your paper money in a few secret locations, and have your accomplice run to those locations and take the money somewhere else when you are arrested.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      Because if two people have a copy of the wallet file, you've got a situation which is essentially impossible with physical currency. I'd liken it to two physical credit cards with the same number, but that's a poor analogue as the feds can just ring the card company and have the account seized regardless of the physical "pointers" to that data. Bitcoin, access to the wallet file = access to the funds, at least until there's a spend. I believe that makes it rather unique.
  - AJ007 13y ago
    I'm not a big fan of the Wall Street Journal but they've published a steady stream of articles on asset forfeiture abuse. That is from someone in government, or even a local law enforcement agency, deciding you've committed a crime and taking nearly all of your assets before any trial. One statistic points to $500 million forfeited in 2010. That was a doubling since 2002, and something that did not even exist roughly 40 years ago. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576512253265073870.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190348090457651... There are many different US government agencies that can seize your assets, without trial, for a large number of reasons. This is not limited to you drugs or organized crime, but rather someone's belief that your money came from something that was illegal. In a case going to the Supreme Court next week, what they are being charged with may not even be illegal. The WSJ appropriately titles the article "How Prosecutors Rig Trials by Freezing Assets." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324110404578630561814823892.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732411040457863... Unfortunately bitcoin is not the solution. Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws. So now you can end up in jail even if you never did anything wrong in the first place. Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins. Unless you are facing the death penalty, and have a whole lot of bitcoins, you probably don't have much leverage. Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them. I'm going to guess some of these regulators are split between liking and hating them. I would imagine that they are already piecing together the puzzle based on subpoenaed data and what is better sent to them from US compliant exchanges. What is the solution? Making people aware that they are not free. That anyone in the state, local, or federal government has the ability to seize all of their assets at anytime. Making sure they understand that if this happens, they better have friends who will graciously front them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars or else they will be seeing a public defender.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      >Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws. That would require intent to be proven. (Not impossible or unfalsifiable, but it's another hurdle) >Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins. If a third party spends those coins because they have the wallet file, the other copy of the wallet file becomes worthless and is no longer in your control to do anything with. >Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them. Not really. Between tumbling services, and the fact that it's stupidly easy to create a wallet out of thin air, at that point you've broken the ownership chain. (If wallet 123, known to belong to me, sends coins to wallet 456, you can't prove whether wallet 456 is under my control unless you happen upon the file in my possession).
- mseebach 13y ago
  > Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was The price briefly for a few days hit almost twice the current price seven months ago. Since then, it has also been worth almost half the current price. Right now, BTC is trading at its 25 day moving average. http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180ztgSzm1g10zm2g...
  - elliottcarlson 13y ago
    Though about a year ago the price was at $11, and prior to that it was stable at $4 for quite some time.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      Yes, indeed. It's seen some spectacular moves, but it's not a very solid narrative that the SilkRoad shutdown has harmed BTC substantially.
    - dmix 13y ago
      The fact it is averaging $130 up from $11 is an indicator of it's wild success. Adding it's stability in the face of SR being shut down which is also pretty amazing. All these people who keep trying to say BTC is a failure keep getting proven wrong.
mediocregopher 13y ago
> Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was This event didn't cause the price to be halved. It actually didn't effect the price at all. The article makes a strange mention of some $230 number, which might have been the price like a year ago, but it's been pretty constant around 110-120 for a while now. EDIT: Sorry, this was supposed to be a response to lnanek2, mis-clicked.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Hey, the price was going up like nuts until recently. If you had bought in or mined early, you'd be rich. Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was. Would have been good to have a short position for this.

Karunamon 13y ago
Can be confiscated? Not if the owner was paying attention. All that would be necessary is for an accomplice to have a copy of the wallet.dat file, in any form. In which case the coins could be moved out from under their noses. As someone who thinks the feds abuse their forfeiture power on a regular basis, seeing them have a hard time makes me laugh.
- betterunix 13y ago
  How is this better than paper money? Store your paper money in a few secret locations, and have your accomplice run to those locations and take the money somewhere else when you are arrested.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    Because if two people have a copy of the wallet file, you've got a situation which is essentially impossible with physical currency. I'd liken it to two physical credit cards with the same number, but that's a poor analogue as the feds can just ring the card company and have the account seized regardless of the physical "pointers" to that data. Bitcoin, access to the wallet file = access to the funds, at least until there's a spend. I believe that makes it rather unique.
- AJ007 13y ago
  I'm not a big fan of the Wall Street Journal but they've published a steady stream of articles on asset forfeiture abuse. That is from someone in government, or even a local law enforcement agency, deciding you've committed a crime and taking nearly all of your assets before any trial. One statistic points to $500 million forfeited in 2010. That was a doubling since 2002, and something that did not even exist roughly 40 years ago. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576512253265073870.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190348090457651... There are many different US government agencies that can seize your assets, without trial, for a large number of reasons. This is not limited to you drugs or organized crime, but rather someone's belief that your money came from something that was illegal. In a case going to the Supreme Court next week, what they are being charged with may not even be illegal. The WSJ appropriately titles the article "How Prosecutors Rig Trials by Freezing Assets." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324110404578630561814823892.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732411040457863... Unfortunately bitcoin is not the solution. Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws. So now you can end up in jail even if you never did anything wrong in the first place. Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins. Unless you are facing the death penalty, and have a whole lot of bitcoins, you probably don't have much leverage. Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them. I'm going to guess some of these regulators are split between liking and hating them. I would imagine that they are already piecing together the puzzle based on subpoenaed data and what is better sent to them from US compliant exchanges. What is the solution? Making people aware that they are not free. That anyone in the state, local, or federal government has the ability to seize all of their assets at anytime. Making sure they understand that if this happens, they better have friends who will graciously front them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars or else they will be seeing a public defender.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    >Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws. That would require intent to be proven. (Not impossible or unfalsifiable, but it's another hurdle) >Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins. If a third party spends those coins because they have the wallet file, the other copy of the wallet file becomes worthless and is no longer in your control to do anything with. >Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them. Not really. Between tumbling services, and the fact that it's stupidly easy to create a wallet out of thin air, at that point you've broken the ownership chain. (If wallet 123, known to belong to me, sends coins to wallet 456, you can't prove whether wallet 456 is under my control unless you happen upon the file in my possession).
mseebach 13y ago
> Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was The price briefly for a few days hit almost twice the current price seven months ago. Since then, it has also been worth almost half the current price. Right now, BTC is trading at its 25 day moving average. http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180ztgSzm1g10zm2g...
- elliottcarlson 13y ago
  Though about a year ago the price was at $11, and prior to that it was stable at $4 for quite some time.
  - mseebach 13y ago
    Yes, indeed. It's seen some spectacular moves, but it's not a very solid narrative that the SilkRoad shutdown has harmed BTC substantially.
  - dmix 13y ago
    The fact it is averaging $130 up from $11 is an indicator of it's wild success. Adding it's stability in the face of SR being shut down which is also pretty amazing. All these people who keep trying to say BTC is a failure keep getting proven wrong.

mediocregopher 13y ago

> Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was This event didn't cause the price to be halved. It actually didn't effect the price at all. The article makes a strange mention of some $230 number, which might have been the price like a year ago, but it's been pretty constant around 110-120 for a while now. EDIT: Sorry, this was supposed to be a response to lnanek2, mis-clicked.