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You realize that was fifty years ago, right? This is like saying computers are impractical because their vacuum tubes require too much power - here in the 21st

by Vivtek 13y ago

You realize that was fifty years ago, right? This is like saying computers are impractical because their vacuum tubes require too much power - here in the 21st century, Sweden has actually run out of combustible garbage because it's working for them. They now have to import garbage as a fuel for power generation.

VLM 13y ago
Its much older than 50 years, thinking about thermodynamic cycles and power generation and all that. Its not like burning a piece of paper in 1960 magically produced more watts, or modern plastic burns cleaner than ancient wood. It would be interesting to find a full analysis of the situation in Sweden. My guess is a lot of cheating... They don't count their labor costs because if they closed all the workers would be on welfare making the same expense, or sure we burn 10K gallons of diesel to transport 1K gallon equivalent of garbage. Everyone gets health care for free, oh hows it paid for, we all pay for it, we just don't budget for it. Sure the capex for the boilers is huge, but the local .gov paid for it so the depreciation cost is "zero" on our budget, although in the real world maybe it would cost $5M/year. I'm just not seeing it work for a legit operation in 2013, because a legit operation in the 60s couldn't run a profit while totally disregarding environmental issues, not seeing how paying $4/gallon for gas instead of fifty cents and actually caring about the environment suddenly makes the budget swing positive. You can run a .gov project and even issue pretend financial statements, but the laws of thermodynamics are not to be denied.
ars 13y ago
It works for Sweden because the population does the work for them. They have like 10 different bins for garbage http://blog.liu.se/rhiannonbristowstagg/category/life-in-sweden/page/3/ http://blog.liu.se/rhiannonbristowstagg/category/life-in-swe... So the power plant hardly needs to do any sorting - all the combustibles are already separated (which means much less ash). Of course no one counts the work of the population when factoring costs.
- alextingle 13y ago
  In fact, machines sort garbage better than humans. In the UK, we're moving away from having people do lots of sorting, towards having everything "recyclable" going into one giant bin. The factory then sorts that into metals, burnables, glass & whatever... it's cheaper, easier and better for everyone.
  - VLM 13y ago
    Do the machines shred? That would be an interesting advantage to machine sorting, shove an old car thru the shredder, and the glass chips go this way, the metal chunks go that way, and the plastic pieces go this way. Maybe we don't often throw cars into the residential trash, but I could see this working with kids toys, or plastic bottles with metal caps.
    - alextingle 13y ago
      Here's a good video of a modern plant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJzqP5pnOF0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJzqP5pnOF0

by Vivtek 13y ago

VLM 13y ago

Its much older than 50 years, thinking about thermodynamic cycles and power generation and all that. Its not like burning a piece of paper in 1960 magically produced more watts, or modern plastic burns cleaner than ancient wood. It would be interesting to find a full analysis of the situation in Sweden. My guess is a lot of cheating... They don't count their labor costs because if they closed all the workers would be on welfare making the same expense, or sure we burn 10K gallons of diesel to transport 1K gallon equivalent of garbage. Everyone gets health care for free, oh hows it paid for, we all pay for it, we just don't budget for it. Sure the capex for the boilers is huge, but the local .gov paid for it so the depreciation cost is "zero" on our budget, although in the real world maybe it would cost $5M/year. I'm just not seeing it work for a legit operation in 2013, because a legit operation in the 60s couldn't run a profit while totally disregarding environmental issues, not seeing how paying $4/gallon for gas instead of fifty cents and actually caring about the environment suddenly makes the budget swing positive. You can run a .gov project and even issue pretend financial statements, but the laws of thermodynamics are not to be denied.

ars 13y ago

It works for Sweden because the population does the work for them. They have like 10 different bins for garbage http://blog.liu.se/rhiannonbristowstagg/category/life-in-sweden/page/3/ http://blog.liu.se/rhiannonbristowstagg/category/life-in-swe... So the power plant hardly needs to do any sorting - all the combustibles are already separated (which means much less ash). Of course no one counts the work of the population when factoring costs.

alextingle 13y ago
In fact, machines sort garbage better than humans. In the UK, we're moving away from having people do lots of sorting, towards having everything "recyclable" going into one giant bin. The factory then sorts that into metals, burnables, glass & whatever... it's cheaper, easier and better for everyone.
- VLM 13y ago
  Do the machines shred? That would be an interesting advantage to machine sorting, shove an old car thru the shredder, and the glass chips go this way, the metal chunks go that way, and the plastic pieces go this way. Maybe we don't often throw cars into the residential trash, but I could see this working with kids toys, or plastic bottles with metal caps.
  - alextingle 13y ago
    Here's a good video of a modern plant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJzqP5pnOF0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJzqP5pnOF0