5 ms·

Paul Buchheit: Did anyone else notice that TechStars and Y-Combinator have the same application?

25 points by paul 20y ago

wastedbrains 20y ago
Yes which was odd. Their video was also rather scary. They do have a few interesting people involved in the project.
Alex3917 20y ago
Having to listen to all those speakers would be extremely annoying. If you aren't intellectually curious enough to read through all the books and blogs written on these subjects on your own, then you're probably the kind of person who should be working for someone else. There is a reason why so many entrepreneurs drop out of school... Plus, their website makes them look really creepy.
zach 20y ago
"Over 30 of the best entrepreneurial minds in Colorado" seems like a lot (especially for Colorado). Is this an educational experience or capitalist enterprise for the founders?
rms 20y ago
Techstars is a clear second to Y Combinator. But there's nothing wrong it. They have a solid program lined up. Yes, the application is completely plagiarized. PG, did they ask permission or did they just do it? Regardless, the YC application is pretty much perfect for this type of program, so I can understand that they didn't want to mess with something that worked. Plagiarism is a high form of flattery. The three or four changed or new questions make the TS application worse than the YC one, they shouldn't have bothered. A venture capitalist is one of the founders of TS -- PG sees that as a negative but it could make it easier to get money from a friendly venture capitalist or provide insight into the notoriously obtuse mind of a VC. TS also has more than one session a week. I see that additional structure as a good thing but I'm sure PG would argue that it's taking time away from hacking. The website of each company certainly shows a difference in mentality -- YC is stylized minimalism, TS is over the top web design you get when you pay someone too much to design you a site. So what should you do? Apply to both. Don't sell yourself short. Boulder's a nice city. So is Boston (even though the trains don't run past midnight).
- zach 20y ago
  I tend to see a VC being in charge as a negative as well. I won't get all Olin Shivers on you, but VCs are not your buddies by profession. Getting money from a VC isn't a favor, it's a business transaction.
  - rms 20y ago
    Well, it's an atypical VC, as policy his firm does funding rounds of $100,000 and greater up to a more standard 5 million.
    - zach 20y ago
      Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favorite VCs, but still, it's a little concerning.
  - whacked_new 20y ago
    Money is money; whoever has it, has it. Resources and opportunities aside, YC money is also a business transaction. Whatever the source of the money, you just work hella hard and do your part.
- pg 20y ago
  No, of course they didn't ask permission to copy the application form. And it's not just the application form. Reading their site is a freaky experience, because I keep coming across bits and pieces of my own thoughts, and even idioms. I'm a bit indignant about the whole operation, actually. I feel like J. K. Rowling would feel if she came across a book that was set at a boarding school for kids with magical powers, with a hero called Henry Potter, who lived with his disagreeable non-magical ("moggle") step-parents, his own parents having been killed by the evil Valdemort...
  - zach 20y ago
    Perhaps the time has come for a startup that starts startups that start startups.
  - 20y ago
python_kiss 20y ago
I think TechStars made three mistakes: 1. Low publicity. 2. Asked too many questions (i.e. what does it mean to be an entrepreneur?) 3. Deadline too soon. They should've kept the deadline for applications at April 12th since by that time, all YC applicants will know if they have been accepted/rejected. The rejected ones could then apply at TechStars. This is not necessarily a bad thing since YC only picks 15 teams, while leaving a big pool of other great startup ideas and founders behind. I have had phone conversations with numerous entrepreneurs on news.yc, and almost all of them plan on applying to TechStars while keeping YC as their first option. TechStars could have, for marketing purposes, used aikido strategy and turn Y-Combinator's strength into weakness: since TechStars is new, they could've claimed that they place greater focus on the startups they fund as a way to prove their model superior to YC. A lot of people would've bought into that argument. Having competition actually validates Y-Combinator's business model. While two similar programs may not be good for either parties, it is definitely good for the prospective founders.
- zach 20y ago
  From their point of view, it makes sense that they don't position themselves as a second choice. Why would they want to defer to YC instead of at least having a crack at the applicants accepted to YC, perhaps offering them better terms?
- abossy 20y ago
  It's great that support for young entrepreneurs is expanding. The entrepreneurial world is a brutal one and you want as many people on your side as possible. Because I live in Colorado (but go to college in Austin), I'm surprised I hadn't heard about this before -- despite it launching about 4 months ago. Boulder is an awesome town, and you have the Rocky Mountains all around. Regardless of the detrimental effect the attraction of nearby ski resorts could have on a startup (which also makes it a great place to live), I feel that Denver's/Boulder's weakness is that there aren't universities with better computer science programs. All the major startup hubs have excellent universities nearby whose talent they can feed off of: Cambridge: MIT, Harvard Silicon Valley: Stanford, Berkeley Seattle: University of Washington Austin: University of Texas (Darn -- After visiting PG's website, I realize I am re-iterating what he says this in his essay, "How To Be Silicon Valley.") I can see this first-hand, attending the University of Texas. I've interviewed with many startups, and you can see how they're student quality is evident in the company's work. I would imagine this is true even moreso in the better CS programs like MIT and Stanford, and double that with towns that have two great programs.
Elfan 20y ago
TechStars almost sounds too good to be true. What's the catch? There's no catch. You can do this!
- paul 20y ago
  Is that a quote from their site?
  - abossy 20y ago
    Yes, it's on their FAQ.
  - Elfan 20y ago
    Yes. I didn't want to just dismiss these guys, it looks like they are new, going through some growing pains, and trying something interesting. However, the mix of Y Combinator hacker talk with bright flashy graphics is just disconcerting. That quote was the most over the top part of the site. I look forward to seeing in the future to see if they can evolve into a niche besides YC or decide to directly compete.
    - jw 20y ago
      I agree the site is way over the top and disconcerting. When I loaded the main page it just felt like they were trying way too hard to sell me something. It looks more like an ad for the 4th of July sale at Macy's than a startup funder. Either that or an ad for Citizen's bank, I cant' decide. It's a stark contrast with the YC site, where you have to read a bit to figure out what's going on. I don't think they need to be worried about getting people to apply, they're giving out free money after all...
zaidf 20y ago
I have been following Brad Feld's blog longer than any other blog. For sure TechStar has a solid lineup and I am sure the entrepreneur pool is larger than what YCombinator and TechStar can support together meaning there shouldn't be any lunch stealing between the two. My biggest problem at the moment with TechStar is their 5% non-negotiable valuation. I understand they want to keep it simple and totally respect that. But that does not take away the unfairness of things when you give the same valuation to a start-up that is already operating and a start-up that is only an idea. I am sure going forward they will adjust that. -Zaid
- Elfan 20y ago
  Is there something you like particularly about his web log or other reason you have been following it? For reference here is where he introduces TechStars: http://www.feld.com/blog/archives/002136.html http://www.feld.com/blog/archives/002136.html Does anyone know what programs besides YC he is talking about?
  - zaidf 20y ago
    There was this traditional VC firm that started something modled after YCombinator. But even then, they required a business plan and fund minimum 250,000 so they must be targeting another audience than YCombinator. They were featured in Wall St Journal along with quotes from Paul Graham too if I remember right. I came across Brad's blog while reading a post where he stresses good UI. Since then I have found to enjoy his insights though at the moment I would say Brad's askthevc.com is a more useful read than feld.com
  - prakster 20y ago
    Elfan, perhaps you are referring to Charles River Ventures' $100K Quick Start Program: http://www.crv.com/AboutCRV/QuickStart.html http://www.crv.com/AboutCRV/QuickStart.html In my opinion, nothing comes close to YC's model.
staunch 20y ago
A group of people who copied someone else's funding idea verbatim are supposed to be good at picking original ideas?
- volida 20y ago
ericwan 20y ago
Despite Techstars' copying of YC's approach, it definitely is an appreciation of YC as a viable business model. And it is a great thing for student entrepreneurs unless, as people may suggest, a VC-run YC copycat do entrepreneurs more harm than good.
brett 20y ago
From their app: "What does entrepreneurship mean to you?" Seriously? Does TechStars come with a free team building retreat?
- pg 20y ago
  That was one of the three questions they didn't copy from ours.
- rsynnott 20y ago
  Hmm. I'm not at all sure that 'entrepreneurship' is a real word.
nickb 20y ago
I guess times are tough. What did Hunter S Thomson used to say... "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Brad Feld, the all knowing VC prophet, left Mobius Capital after Mobius cratered and now he's trolling for scraps with "borrowed" equipment. He used to do deals for millions and now he's throwing $10Ks around. Sad. http://valleywag.com/tech/brad-feld/feld-folds-vc-blogger-brad-feld-goes-silent-199802.php http://valleywag.com/tech/brad-feld/feld-folds-vc-blogger-brad-feld-goes-silent-199802.php
- zaidf 20y ago
  May be you should do your homework. Brad's pretty heavily invested in potential hits such as FeedBurner and TechStar is led by David Cohen and is more of a side thing(it appears) for Brad. I am personally biased in favor of people who take time to reply to strangers seeking advice. Paul Graham, Brad Feld, Seth Godin and few others are great examples of folks you can write to and expect some valuable words of wisdom in return.
dfens 20y ago
I wonder what the odds are of a TechStar startup competing with a YC startup? That could be interesting.
volida 20y ago
ecuzzillo 20y ago
I think YC was bound to attract clones, although I don't think it was bound to attract clones quite this clonelike. YC has created a new investment stage, and a new niche for investment companies (which is to say, the seed-funding-plus-advice niche), and I don't think it's particularly surprising that there are more companies entering that market. I would bet that YC is going to be a bit like the Sequoia of seed/advice firms, and that most other such firms will enter the market because they see YC's success, fail to make money, but continue to operate, much like most VCs don't make money.
yc1 20y ago
ok here is a problem: Say you have a great idea (don't we all :)) But we don't know if either TechStars or Y-Combinator will actually accept our idea so to hedge our bets we apply to both. (of course YC is first option). Now TechStars will send their results on Apr 5 and the deadline to accept, I think is Apr14 . This is before the Apr22 date when YC decides which companies it will fund. So on Apr14: if you are one of the really good ideas that both TechStars and YC like - because of the timeline - you get into a dilema: if u say no to TechStars there is no guarantee that YC will accept u but if u say yes to TechStars - then u give up on your first choice without even getting a chance to hear the YC results. Seems like a cunning way for TechStars to get all the best ideas this summer before YC can get them. (I bet they try to pull this off every six months to try and steal all the best ideas...) So, YC needs think about how to solve this potential issue - (maybe bringin the dates of their decisions??)
- pyc 20y ago
  I think this is going to backfire. Some of the start-ups they want will say no just because they are waiting on YC, then when YC turns them down, TS will have missed out on one of their top choices who now will have to seek a THIRD source of funding. Smart money is for that third VC to pick up YC's 9th through 16th choices, and any of TS's top 8 that turned them down waiting on a YC acceptance that never came through.

25 points by paul 20y ago

Yes which was odd. Their video was also rather scary. They do have a few interesting people involved in the project.

Having to listen to all those speakers would be extremely annoying. If you aren't intellectually curious enough to read through all the books and blogs written on these subjects on your own, then you're probably the kind of person who should be working for someone else. There is a reason why so many entrepreneurs drop out of school... Plus, their website makes them look really creepy.

zach 20y ago

"Over 30 of the best entrepreneurial minds in Colorado" seems like a lot (especially for Colorado). Is this an educational experience or capitalist enterprise for the founders?

rms 20y ago

Techstars is a clear second to Y Combinator. But there's nothing wrong it. They have a solid program lined up. Yes, the application is completely plagiarized. PG, did they ask permission or did they just do it? Regardless, the YC application is pretty much perfect for this type of program, so I can understand that they didn't want to mess with something that worked. Plagiarism is a high form of flattery. The three or four changed or new questions make the TS application worse than the YC one, they shouldn't have bothered. A venture capitalist is one of the founders of TS -- PG sees that as a negative but it could make it easier to get money from a friendly venture capitalist or provide insight into the notoriously obtuse mind of a VC. TS also has more than one session a week. I see that additional structure as a good thing but I'm sure PG would argue that it's taking time away from hacking. The website of each company certainly shows a difference in mentality -- YC is stylized minimalism, TS is over the top web design you get when you pay someone too much to design you a site. So what should you do? Apply to both. Don't sell yourself short. Boulder's a nice city. So is Boston (even though the trains don't run past midnight).

zach 20y ago
I tend to see a VC being in charge as a negative as well. I won't get all Olin Shivers on you, but VCs are not your buddies by profession. Getting money from a VC isn't a favor, it's a business transaction.
- rms 20y ago
  Well, it's an atypical VC, as policy his firm does funding rounds of $100,000 and greater up to a more standard 5 million.
  - zach 20y ago
    Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favorite VCs, but still, it's a little concerning.
- whacked_new 20y ago
  Money is money; whoever has it, has it. Resources and opportunities aside, YC money is also a business transaction. Whatever the source of the money, you just work hella hard and do your part.
pg 20y ago
No, of course they didn't ask permission to copy the application form. And it's not just the application form. Reading their site is a freaky experience, because I keep coming across bits and pieces of my own thoughts, and even idioms. I'm a bit indignant about the whole operation, actually. I feel like J. K. Rowling would feel if she came across a book that was set at a boarding school for kids with magical powers, with a hero called Henry Potter, who lived with his disagreeable non-magical ("moggle") step-parents, his own parents having been killed by the evil Valdemort...
- zach 20y ago
  Perhaps the time has come for a startup that starts startups that start startups.
- 20y ago

python_kiss 20y ago

I think TechStars made three mistakes: 1. Low publicity. 2. Asked too many questions (i.e. what does it mean to be an entrepreneur?) 3. Deadline too soon. They should've kept the deadline for applications at April 12th since by that time, all YC applicants will know if they have been accepted/rejected. The rejected ones could then apply at TechStars. This is not necessarily a bad thing since YC only picks 15 teams, while leaving a big pool of other great startup ideas and founders behind. I have had phone conversations with numerous entrepreneurs on news.yc, and almost all of them plan on applying to TechStars while keeping YC as their first option. TechStars could have, for marketing purposes, used aikido strategy and turn Y-Combinator's strength into weakness: since TechStars is new, they could've claimed that they place greater focus on the startups they fund as a way to prove their model superior to YC. A lot of people would've bought into that argument. Having competition actually validates Y-Combinator's business model. While two similar programs may not be good for either parties, it is definitely good for the prospective founders.

zach 20y ago
From their point of view, it makes sense that they don't position themselves as a second choice. Why would they want to defer to YC instead of at least having a crack at the applicants accepted to YC, perhaps offering them better terms?
abossy 20y ago
It's great that support for young entrepreneurs is expanding. The entrepreneurial world is a brutal one and you want as many people on your side as possible. Because I live in Colorado (but go to college in Austin), I'm surprised I hadn't heard about this before -- despite it launching about 4 months ago. Boulder is an awesome town, and you have the Rocky Mountains all around. Regardless of the detrimental effect the attraction of nearby ski resorts could have on a startup (which also makes it a great place to live), I feel that Denver's/Boulder's weakness is that there aren't universities with better computer science programs. All the major startup hubs have excellent universities nearby whose talent they can feed off of: Cambridge: MIT, Harvard Silicon Valley: Stanford, Berkeley Seattle: University of Washington Austin: University of Texas (Darn -- After visiting PG's website, I realize I am re-iterating what he says this in his essay, "How To Be Silicon Valley.") I can see this first-hand, attending the University of Texas. I've interviewed with many startups, and you can see how they're student quality is evident in the company's work. I would imagine this is true even moreso in the better CS programs like MIT and Stanford, and double that with towns that have two great programs.

Elfan 20y ago

TechStars almost sounds too good to be true. What's the catch? There's no catch. You can do this!

paul 20y ago
Is that a quote from their site?
- abossy 20y ago
  Yes, it's on their FAQ.
- Elfan 20y ago
  Yes. I didn't want to just dismiss these guys, it looks like they are new, going through some growing pains, and trying something interesting. However, the mix of Y Combinator hacker talk with bright flashy graphics is just disconcerting. That quote was the most over the top part of the site. I look forward to seeing in the future to see if they can evolve into a niche besides YC or decide to directly compete.
  - jw 20y ago
    I agree the site is way over the top and disconcerting. When I loaded the main page it just felt like they were trying way too hard to sell me something. It looks more like an ad for the 4th of July sale at Macy's than a startup funder. Either that or an ad for Citizen's bank, I cant' decide. It's a stark contrast with the YC site, where you have to read a bit to figure out what's going on. I don't think they need to be worried about getting people to apply, they're giving out free money after all...

zaidf 20y ago

I have been following Brad Feld's blog longer than any other blog. For sure TechStar has a solid lineup and I am sure the entrepreneur pool is larger than what YCombinator and TechStar can support together meaning there shouldn't be any lunch stealing between the two. My biggest problem at the moment with TechStar is their 5% non-negotiable valuation. I understand they want to keep it simple and totally respect that. But that does not take away the unfairness of things when you give the same valuation to a start-up that is already operating and a start-up that is only an idea. I am sure going forward they will adjust that. -Zaid

Elfan 20y ago
Is there something you like particularly about his web log or other reason you have been following it? For reference here is where he introduces TechStars: http://www.feld.com/blog/archives/002136.html http://www.feld.com/blog/archives/002136.html Does anyone know what programs besides YC he is talking about?
- zaidf 20y ago
  There was this traditional VC firm that started something modled after YCombinator. But even then, they required a business plan and fund minimum 250,000 so they must be targeting another audience than YCombinator. They were featured in Wall St Journal along with quotes from Paul Graham too if I remember right. I came across Brad's blog while reading a post where he stresses good UI. Since then I have found to enjoy his insights though at the moment I would say Brad's askthevc.com is a more useful read than feld.com
- prakster 20y ago
  Elfan, perhaps you are referring to Charles River Ventures' $100K Quick Start Program: http://www.crv.com/AboutCRV/QuickStart.html http://www.crv.com/AboutCRV/QuickStart.html In my opinion, nothing comes close to YC's model.

staunch 20y ago

A group of people who copied someone else's funding idea verbatim are supposed to be good at picking original ideas?

volida 20y ago

ericwan 20y ago

Despite Techstars' copying of YC's approach, it definitely is an appreciation of YC as a viable business model. And it is a great thing for student entrepreneurs unless, as people may suggest, a VC-run YC copycat do entrepreneurs more harm than good.

brett 20y ago

From their app: "What does entrepreneurship mean to you?" Seriously? Does TechStars come with a free team building retreat?

pg 20y ago
That was one of the three questions they didn't copy from ours.
rsynnott 20y ago
Hmm. I'm not at all sure that 'entrepreneurship' is a real word.

nickb 20y ago

I guess times are tough. What did Hunter S Thomson used to say... "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Brad Feld, the all knowing VC prophet, left Mobius Capital after Mobius cratered and now he's trolling for scraps with "borrowed" equipment. He used to do deals for millions and now he's throwing $10Ks around. Sad. http://valleywag.com/tech/brad-feld/feld-folds-vc-blogger-brad-feld-goes-silent-199802.php http://valleywag.com/tech/brad-feld/feld-folds-vc-blogger-brad-feld-goes-silent-199802.php

zaidf 20y ago
May be you should do your homework. Brad's pretty heavily invested in potential hits such as FeedBurner and TechStar is led by David Cohen and is more of a side thing(it appears) for Brad. I am personally biased in favor of people who take time to reply to strangers seeking advice. Paul Graham, Brad Feld, Seth Godin and few others are great examples of folks you can write to and expect some valuable words of wisdom in return.

dfens 20y ago

I wonder what the odds are of a TechStar startup competing with a YC startup? That could be interesting.

volida 20y ago

ecuzzillo 20y ago

I think YC was bound to attract clones, although I don't think it was bound to attract clones quite this clonelike. YC has created a new investment stage, and a new niche for investment companies (which is to say, the seed-funding-plus-advice niche), and I don't think it's particularly surprising that there are more companies entering that market. I would bet that YC is going to be a bit like the Sequoia of seed/advice firms, and that most other such firms will enter the market because they see YC's success, fail to make money, but continue to operate, much like most VCs don't make money.

yc1 20y ago

ok here is a problem: Say you have a great idea (don't we all :)) But we don't know if either TechStars or Y-Combinator will actually accept our idea so to hedge our bets we apply to both. (of course YC is first option). Now TechStars will send their results on Apr 5 and the deadline to accept, I think is Apr14 . This is before the Apr22 date when YC decides which companies it will fund. So on Apr14: if you are one of the really good ideas that both TechStars and YC like - because of the timeline - you get into a dilema: if u say no to TechStars there is no guarantee that YC will accept u but if u say yes to TechStars - then u give up on your first choice without even getting a chance to hear the YC results. Seems like a cunning way for TechStars to get all the best ideas this summer before YC can get them. (I bet they try to pull this off every six months to try and steal all the best ideas...) So, YC needs think about how to solve this potential issue - (maybe bringin the dates of their decisions??)

pyc 20y ago
I think this is going to backfire. Some of the start-ups they want will say no just because they are waiting on YC, then when YC turns them down, TS will have missed out on one of their top choices who now will have to seek a THIRD source of funding. Smart money is for that third VC to pick up YC's 9th through 16th choices, and any of TS's top 8 that turned them down waiting on a YC acceptance that never came through.