5 ms·

And here we are no longer able to point the finger at the practices of the 'evil communists'.

tptacek 13y ago
How does one even respond to a comment like this? Do we say, "of course we can still point a finger" and accept the premise that the Russians are "evil communists"? Or do shrug and accept the premise that the US and the Russian government, which runs a sideline business in murdering inconveniently critical journalists, are somehow morally equivalent?
- willvarfar 13y ago
  You'll be surprised how many educated Europeans think, what with Gitmo and the war in Iraq and so on, that the US and Russia are morally equivalent. I expect the same is true in much of the rest of the world too. But as a European, I can say the sentiment is widespread here.
  - stevo111 13y ago
    Journalist Michael Hastings dead after telling his friends that he has a big story on CIA director and he needs to lay low for a while as FBI is "onto him". How about that western word? None of those "putin journo killings" has never been proven to have any links to Putin. All these anti-Russian accusations are moral equivalents of people claiming that US government killed Michael Hastings. So please - STFU.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Thankfully, the notion that Hastings was somehow killed by having his car remote-controlled by the CIA has largely become the province of Infowars.com. When the Russian government has someone killed, they don't die in a mysterious accident. They're gunned down, when they're lucky. When they're not, they die an agonizing death after being subtly and fatally poisoned by radioactive isotopes.
  - spindritf 13y ago
    Those must be Europeans from countries that were not occupied by the Soviets.
  - rtpg 13y ago
    You'd be surprised how many educated Europeans don't qualify themselves as "Europeans" ;) There's a big difference between countries in Europe and their views on the world. I'm pretty convinced countries more envelopped in realpolitik will have people less convinced of your equivalence.
- kutakbash 13y ago
  >which runs a sideline business in murdering inconveniently critical journalists Not trying to defend Russian govt (which is without a doubt pretty sinister), but this 'journalist murdering' thing that pops up every time Westerners discuss Russian internal policy is a bit off the mark. The way you say it cues that all Russian media is pro-government and Russian citizens en masse are either brainwashed drones or impregnable oppositional free-thinkers. While in fact its only TV which is thoroughly controlled by the government. Russian press is pretty vocal and most of it is clearly critical of the United Russia party policy. More so Russian online press — I don't know a single popular online news outlet which isn't critical of United Russia (modestly or very much so). Sure there are a couple of high profile murder cases that may be linked to Russian govt, but list of murdered journalists found in wiki is in its entirety composed either of people died in 90s or people whose death may (or may not) be connected with provincial level oligarchs, especially on North Caucasus. So saying that murdering journalists is what Russian govt does is just not true. It is true that govt doesn't provide them with utmost security though. Why do I even care? Because you guys could be more critical of real and serious United Russia's wrongdoings (like prosecution of a row of activists involved in protests of 2011-2), instead of reiterating on secondary matters like journalist murders (ostensibly committed by government) or gay rights. I hope I will not have to change accounts after this post.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    I don't know what to tell you here, given that the whole premise of my comment was to separate the Russian people from the Russian government.
    - kutakbash 13y ago
      It's not really proven that Russian government murders journalists. Though. Which is the whole premise of my comment.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        Look at this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin_.28incl._2nd_Chechen_conflict.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_R... Tell me that anything remotely like this has happened in the US or Western Europe. Reading that list, it almost feels like murdering a Russian journalist is what one does instead of sending an angry letter to the editor.
- glesica 13y ago
  Unlike the US, which runs a sideline business murdering random children with drones in far-off corners of the world? Equivalent enough for me.
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    Right, that's totally the intention of the program. Killing children explicitly furthers the US's political goals.
    - frenger 13y ago
      ...well they do do that. The intent is completely unclear, anyhow.
    - glesica 13y ago
      They know it happens, they refuse to change their actions. As far as I'm concerned, that is the moral equivalent of murdering children. In fact, the government itself might very well apply my logic if, say, a toy company realized there was a huge amount of lead in its baby pacifiers and didn't say anything. Certainly they didn't set out to kill babies, but their deliberate, knowing actions created the same outcome, so there is no real moral difference.
      - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
        The point was brought up in context of trying to equate Russia's killing of journalists with the US's actions in some way. I'm not justifying the drone strikes in any way, instead pointing out that the comparison is totally invalid.
        glesica 13y ago
        How is the comparison invalid? Both governments exhibit a terrible, immoral disregard for human life whenever it furthers their callous political goals. I really don't see how you can possibly say one is somehow worse than or incomparable with the other.
- turbojerry 13y ago
  US bombed al-Jazeera in Baghdad http://rense.com/general36/camm.htm http://rense.com/general36/camm.htm US bombed al-Jazeera in Kabul http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/nov/17/warinafghanistan2001.afghanistan http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/nov/17/warinafghanista...
kutakbash 13y ago
Truth be told, you won't be able to call them 'communists' (evil or good) regardless.

How does one even respond to a comment like this? Do we say, "of course we can still point a finger" and accept the premise that the Russians are "evil communists"? Or do shrug and accept the premise that the US and the Russian government, which runs a sideline business in murdering inconveniently critical journalists, are somehow morally equivalent?

willvarfar 13y ago
You'll be surprised how many educated Europeans think, what with Gitmo and the war in Iraq and so on, that the US and Russia are morally equivalent. I expect the same is true in much of the rest of the world too. But as a European, I can say the sentiment is widespread here.
- stevo111 13y ago
  Journalist Michael Hastings dead after telling his friends that he has a big story on CIA director and he needs to lay low for a while as FBI is "onto him". How about that western word? None of those "putin journo killings" has never been proven to have any links to Putin. All these anti-Russian accusations are moral equivalents of people claiming that US government killed Michael Hastings. So please - STFU.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Thankfully, the notion that Hastings was somehow killed by having his car remote-controlled by the CIA has largely become the province of Infowars.com. When the Russian government has someone killed, they don't die in a mysterious accident. They're gunned down, when they're lucky. When they're not, they die an agonizing death after being subtly and fatally poisoned by radioactive isotopes.
- spindritf 13y ago
  Those must be Europeans from countries that were not occupied by the Soviets.
- rtpg 13y ago
  You'd be surprised how many educated Europeans don't qualify themselves as "Europeans" ;) There's a big difference between countries in Europe and their views on the world. I'm pretty convinced countries more envelopped in realpolitik will have people less convinced of your equivalence.
kutakbash 13y ago
>which runs a sideline business in murdering inconveniently critical journalists Not trying to defend Russian govt (which is without a doubt pretty sinister), but this 'journalist murdering' thing that pops up every time Westerners discuss Russian internal policy is a bit off the mark. The way you say it cues that all Russian media is pro-government and Russian citizens en masse are either brainwashed drones or impregnable oppositional free-thinkers. While in fact its only TV which is thoroughly controlled by the government. Russian press is pretty vocal and most of it is clearly critical of the United Russia party policy. More so Russian online press — I don't know a single popular online news outlet which isn't critical of United Russia (modestly or very much so). Sure there are a couple of high profile murder cases that may be linked to Russian govt, but list of murdered journalists found in wiki is in its entirety composed either of people died in 90s or people whose death may (or may not) be connected with provincial level oligarchs, especially on North Caucasus. So saying that murdering journalists is what Russian govt does is just not true. It is true that govt doesn't provide them with utmost security though. Why do I even care? Because you guys could be more critical of real and serious United Russia's wrongdoings (like prosecution of a row of activists involved in protests of 2011-2), instead of reiterating on secondary matters like journalist murders (ostensibly committed by government) or gay rights. I hope I will not have to change accounts after this post.
- tptacek 13y ago
  I don't know what to tell you here, given that the whole premise of my comment was to separate the Russian people from the Russian government.
  - kutakbash 13y ago
    It's not really proven that Russian government murders journalists. Though. Which is the whole premise of my comment.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Look at this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin_.28incl._2nd_Chechen_conflict.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_R... Tell me that anything remotely like this has happened in the US or Western Europe. Reading that list, it almost feels like murdering a Russian journalist is what one does instead of sending an angry letter to the editor.
glesica 13y ago
Unlike the US, which runs a sideline business murdering random children with drones in far-off corners of the world? Equivalent enough for me.
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  Right, that's totally the intention of the program. Killing children explicitly furthers the US's political goals.
  - frenger 13y ago
    ...well they do do that. The intent is completely unclear, anyhow.
  - glesica 13y ago
    They know it happens, they refuse to change their actions. As far as I'm concerned, that is the moral equivalent of murdering children. In fact, the government itself might very well apply my logic if, say, a toy company realized there was a huge amount of lead in its baby pacifiers and didn't say anything. Certainly they didn't set out to kill babies, but their deliberate, knowing actions created the same outcome, so there is no real moral difference.
    - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
      The point was brought up in context of trying to equate Russia's killing of journalists with the US's actions in some way. I'm not justifying the drone strikes in any way, instead pointing out that the comparison is totally invalid.
      - glesica 13y ago
        How is the comparison invalid? Both governments exhibit a terrible, immoral disregard for human life whenever it furthers their callous political goals. I really don't see how you can possibly say one is somehow worse than or incomparable with the other.
turbojerry 13y ago
US bombed al-Jazeera in Baghdad http://rense.com/general36/camm.htm http://rense.com/general36/camm.htm US bombed al-Jazeera in Kabul http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/nov/17/warinafghanistan2001.afghanistan http://www.theguardian.com/media/2001/nov/17/warinafghanista...

kutakbash 13y ago

Truth be told, you won't be able to call them 'communists' (evil or good) regardless.