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People with ADHD have reduced brain growth in areas associated with executive control. ADHD is very real. So is the 50%+ of untreated people with ADHD having s

by com2kid 13y ago

People with ADHD have reduced brain growth in areas associated with executive control. ADHD is very real. So is the 50%+ of untreated people with ADHD having substance abuse problems. So is the higher suicide rate. So is the reduced rate of high school and college graduation. So are the dramatically increased rates of depression. Then there is the incredibly high rate of co-morbidity of ADHD with other psychological disorders, most prominently Bipolar Disorder.

wpietri 13y ago
Those are interesting facts, but I don't think they prove anything about existence of ADHD as an actual disease. Lower-than-average height is also correlated with many diseases but it isn't a disease on its own.
- com2kid 13y ago
  The portion of the brain associated with self control is smaller in people with a mental disorder that is characterized by a lack of self control. Now obviously proving the entire causation thing here is pretty hard, but, if someone is missing their eyes, and that person is blind, there might just be a causative relationship happening. To put it in perspective (http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/549973 http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/549973), 32% of people with ADHD suffer from depression. 21% bipolar. That isn't some statistical oddity. (The % is higher in the untreated population, no citation on hand right now sorry) Over 50% of people with ADHD have substance abuse problems. Imagine taking a population and saying "oh yeah half those people are alcoholics, but there is no strange underlying cause, nope, we should just let them be."[1] ADHD isn't the popularized image of "little Johnny can't do his boring old homework that the mean teacher assigned", but rather "Jenny can't make herself go to sleep even though if she is late one more day for work she will be fired and have no money for food or rent." ADHD is like having your entire sense of self control ripped away from you, no matter how much you want to do something, you cannot force yourself to do it. Pleading and begging doesn't work. Breaking down in tears over one's complete lack of ability to accomplish the simplest of tasks doesn't help any. The neurochemical responsible for self control quite literally isn't there. [1] Well ignoring that America has basically done that for multiple cultures already...
  - wpietri 13y ago
    I'm not our society is structured such that in many common circumstances, greater linearity is beneficial. I'm also not denying that there could be relationships between size of brain regions and various physical characteristics. And I'm certainly not denying your experiences. What I'm questioning is constructing this as a mental disorder. That's distinct from, say, psychosis. 100k years ago, being totally delusional would have been harmful. But there's no reason to think that most people classified as ADHD would have been at any disadvantage. Again, come back to the height analogy (which you haven't addressed so far). There are obvious advantages in our society to being taller, including greater career success. Many short people hate being short. Does that mean there's something wrong with short people, or that they should all be treated with drugs as soon as we can diagnose Tallness Deficit Disorder?
    - com2kid 13y ago
      Actually below a minimum height, treatment options are given to parents to help their children grow taller. There is a well estab I also feel that you are tending towards the naturalist fallacy here. Just because something is natural doesn't mean that it is good (or neutral). Mother nature doesn't care. As for ADHD existing 100k years ago, a large percentage of ADHD cases are in children born to mother's who used drugs during pregnancy. (Obviously not all, but there is a very large %). One cannot discount at least some modern factors being responsible for some percentage of ADHD cases.
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by com2kid 13y ago

wpietri 13y ago

Those are interesting facts, but I don't think they prove anything about existence of ADHD as an actual disease. Lower-than-average height is also correlated with many diseases but it isn't a disease on its own.

com2kid 13y ago
The portion of the brain associated with self control is smaller in people with a mental disorder that is characterized by a lack of self control. Now obviously proving the entire causation thing here is pretty hard, but, if someone is missing their eyes, and that person is blind, there might just be a causative relationship happening. To put it in perspective (http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/549973 http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/549973), 32% of people with ADHD suffer from depression. 21% bipolar. That isn't some statistical oddity. (The % is higher in the untreated population, no citation on hand right now sorry) Over 50% of people with ADHD have substance abuse problems. Imagine taking a population and saying "oh yeah half those people are alcoholics, but there is no strange underlying cause, nope, we should just let them be."[1] ADHD isn't the popularized image of "little Johnny can't do his boring old homework that the mean teacher assigned", but rather "Jenny can't make herself go to sleep even though if she is late one more day for work she will be fired and have no money for food or rent." ADHD is like having your entire sense of self control ripped away from you, no matter how much you want to do something, you cannot force yourself to do it. Pleading and begging doesn't work. Breaking down in tears over one's complete lack of ability to accomplish the simplest of tasks doesn't help any. The neurochemical responsible for self control quite literally isn't there. [1] Well ignoring that America has basically done that for multiple cultures already...
- wpietri 13y ago
  I'm not our society is structured such that in many common circumstances, greater linearity is beneficial. I'm also not denying that there could be relationships between size of brain regions and various physical characteristics. And I'm certainly not denying your experiences. What I'm questioning is constructing this as a mental disorder. That's distinct from, say, psychosis. 100k years ago, being totally delusional would have been harmful. But there's no reason to think that most people classified as ADHD would have been at any disadvantage. Again, come back to the height analogy (which you haven't addressed so far). There are obvious advantages in our society to being taller, including greater career success. Many short people hate being short. Does that mean there's something wrong with short people, or that they should all be treated with drugs as soon as we can diagnose Tallness Deficit Disorder?
  - com2kid 13y ago
    Actually below a minimum height, treatment options are given to parents to help their children grow taller. There is a well estab I also feel that you are tending towards the naturalist fallacy here. Just because something is natural doesn't mean that it is good (or neutral). Mother nature doesn't care. As for ADHD existing 100k years ago, a large percentage of ADHD cases are in children born to mother's who used drugs during pregnancy. (Obviously not all, but there is a very large %). One cannot discount at least some modern factors being responsible for some percentage of ADHD cases.
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