4 ms·

Good. Medicine in the form of antibiotics and inoculations against various dangerous diseases has brought us far, but it seems to be time to rethink some of th

Good. Medicine in the form of antibiotics and inoculations against various dangerous diseases has brought us far, but it seems to be time to rethink some of the recent developments. Maybe we can stop growing a monoculture of humans where the slightest deviation from the norm must be treated with some kind of drug. I am from Europe (but live in the US) and I salute the folks there resisting this nonsense. (And for the record I am not saying there do not exist cases where treatment with such drugs would be indicated, just that the extend to which this is done in the US is not healthy).

lfuller 13y ago
I'd recommend that you talk to a few people with ADHD and see if they consider their disorder to be "the slightest deviation from the norm". It's clear from this article that doctors certainly don't see it that way.
- badclient 13y ago
  And I'd recommend you visit the overflowing offices of a few shrinks scamming patients by charging $100-$150 for five minute appointments to provide the monthly refill for adderall.
  - lfuller 13y ago
    I don't think that anecdotes, personal beliefs, or unqualified claims are the right way to approach something like this, especially if you don't have any personal or professional experience with the disorder. Any disorder or disease that requires a potentially addictive medication will inevitably have crooked doctors - this is seen as well with patients requiring Morphine or Codeine. This crookedness is a separate issue from the illness, and is not relevant in a discussion about neurobiology.
  - voxgen 13y ago
    That's a symptom of bad healthcare systems. In the UK, I didn't have to pay anything for refills of concerta. In NZ, I only had to pay the GP who gave me a referral to a free psychiatrist for methylphenidate and dexamphetamine sulphate. In both places, it has been a relatively long journey to get medication. They were keen to try to resolve my issues without drugs - it was about half a year between when I started seeing a psychiatrist and when they suggested medication.
- DSMan195276 13y ago
  As an adult with ADHD, I can agree. It's definitely real, and it's definitely not just something that can be easily ignored without proper education about it (And without proper medication if necessary). Personally, I was lucky, as I was diagnosed as a younger age (Around 5th grade or 6th grade). Recently I took a college course on handling ADHD in college, and my professor also had ADHD, having had it for many years, struggling with it, and not ever learning about it until she was around 50 years-old. I agree with those who say it may be over-diagnosed, but at the same time, it's frustrating to see people who have no understanding of the disease at all tell me that it's all in my head and I should just get over it and act like everyone else. Being a bit older, I've learned to simply shake it off and move on, but it tough being a kid struggling to do stuff that others seem to be able to accomplish no problem, and then be told that you're simply not trying hard enough and never get any access to education on ADHD and/or medication. It's no different then going up to someone with depression and telling them it's all in their head and to just stop it. It simply doesn't work that way, and pretending it does only makes those with the disease feel worse about themselves without helping them.
anigbrowl 13y ago
thanks to uninformed attitudes like yours, I was unable to get any treatment for my ADHD for years while living in Europe. Instead I was told that I was stressed because I was depressed, and depressed because I was stressed, and made to feel like it was my fault for not being easily treatable. Maybe we can stop growing a monoculture of humans where the slightest deviation from the norm must be treated with some kind of drug. Yes, yes, and vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry plot, and all the rest. I am really tired of this amateur-hour analysis from people who can't even be bothered to muster up a citation for their hand-waving argument.
- PixelPusher 13y ago
  Go anywhere outside of the US and Europe and they would laugh at you. Our culture (hispanic) takes it as a sign of weakness and petty complaints. Most people are too worried trying to feed themselves or their families to even think about being depressed. Furthermore, with the little money they have they tend to go to doctors for diseases that directly affect their bodies or ability to earn.
- linuxhansl 13y ago
  Yes, yes, and vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry plot, and all the rest. I have neither said nor implied this anywhere.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    And yet you're employing the same basic argument.
- uniclaude 13y ago
  What you should think about is that for one person like yours that stays untreated with your ADHD, in the US there might be a lot of kids forced to undergo treatments for what is no real ADHD. I grew up in Europe, and I seriously think that I would have spent my life under a very high amount of drugs if I had been raised in the US. I'm very glad I didn't have to go through this, because in Europe it is much more difficult to be recognized as someone having ADHD. So I'm sorry for you to have suffered, but I can't say I'm not happy I didn't. All of this said, I no I have no data to back this up, it's just a gut feeling.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. And they are disorders. The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. The problems these disorders cause the individual are very real and unmistakeably negative. Sometimes this is muddied by people claiming schizophrenia, ADHD and bipolar disorder have "hidden benefits", especially creativity. Sometimes conspiracy nuts equate mental disorders with some kind of "dissident" behavior that has to be censors. It's not. These people suffer, and it's not only society that makes them suffer, but also their brain biology...
- bradleyjg 13y ago
  > The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. Would that were true! In fact the science is not very strong at all. We have descriptive sets of symptoms and we have classes of drugs discovered serendipitously that seem to help some sufferers, but despite 30+ years of effort we have little more than post hoc justifications for mechanisms of action and underlying causes. The chemical imbalance theory has very little evidence going for it besides circular reasoning. We are at the point in the science of mental illness where we go and categorize things -- this animal has a spine, gives birth to live young, and is warm blooded -- okay put it in this order. We need a Darwin, or at least a Mendel.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    Depression for example is a very real problem for those affected. Several drugs are available which provide repeatable relief. Countless studies show, that suicide can be prevented through anti-depressants which mostly don't cause major side effects, leaving the patient much better off. A lack of understanding why these drugs work does not mean that the diseases they are often successfully treating is "phony".
    - 13y ago
Daniel_Newby 13y ago
The "slightest deviation" hypothesis has been conclusively disproven. ADHD positive by American standards correlates with -10 IQ points, double the rate of serious injuries, much lower age of first pregnancy and much higher rates of promiscuity, dramatically lower rates of high school (secondary school) graduation, almost total inability to complete a university degree, amd very high rates of criminal conviction (at least half of prisoners are ADHD positive). The American ADHD criteria are hard science, derived by looking at a syndrome of social failure and back-calculating diagnostic criteria. The European approach, in contrast, is based on Freudian dogma. I.e., weapons grade malarkey.
linuxhansl 13y ago
To many of the commenters, have a look at this: http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html This is from the CDC. * 9.5 of all kids diagnosed with ADHD * 13.2% of boys * 22% increase of children with a parent-reported ADHD diagnosis between 2003 and 2007 Really? You think this is OK?

lfuller 13y ago

I'd recommend that you talk to a few people with ADHD and see if they consider their disorder to be "the slightest deviation from the norm". It's clear from this article that doctors certainly don't see it that way.

badclient 13y ago
And I'd recommend you visit the overflowing offices of a few shrinks scamming patients by charging $100-$150 for five minute appointments to provide the monthly refill for adderall.
- lfuller 13y ago
  I don't think that anecdotes, personal beliefs, or unqualified claims are the right way to approach something like this, especially if you don't have any personal or professional experience with the disorder. Any disorder or disease that requires a potentially addictive medication will inevitably have crooked doctors - this is seen as well with patients requiring Morphine or Codeine. This crookedness is a separate issue from the illness, and is not relevant in a discussion about neurobiology.
- voxgen 13y ago
  That's a symptom of bad healthcare systems. In the UK, I didn't have to pay anything for refills of concerta. In NZ, I only had to pay the GP who gave me a referral to a free psychiatrist for methylphenidate and dexamphetamine sulphate. In both places, it has been a relatively long journey to get medication. They were keen to try to resolve my issues without drugs - it was about half a year between when I started seeing a psychiatrist and when they suggested medication.
DSMan195276 13y ago
As an adult with ADHD, I can agree. It's definitely real, and it's definitely not just something that can be easily ignored without proper education about it (And without proper medication if necessary). Personally, I was lucky, as I was diagnosed as a younger age (Around 5th grade or 6th grade). Recently I took a college course on handling ADHD in college, and my professor also had ADHD, having had it for many years, struggling with it, and not ever learning about it until she was around 50 years-old. I agree with those who say it may be over-diagnosed, but at the same time, it's frustrating to see people who have no understanding of the disease at all tell me that it's all in my head and I should just get over it and act like everyone else. Being a bit older, I've learned to simply shake it off and move on, but it tough being a kid struggling to do stuff that others seem to be able to accomplish no problem, and then be told that you're simply not trying hard enough and never get any access to education on ADHD and/or medication. It's no different then going up to someone with depression and telling them it's all in their head and to just stop it. It simply doesn't work that way, and pretending it does only makes those with the disease feel worse about themselves without helping them.

anigbrowl 13y ago

thanks to uninformed attitudes like yours, I was unable to get any treatment for my ADHD for years while living in Europe. Instead I was told that I was stressed because I was depressed, and depressed because I was stressed, and made to feel like it was my fault for not being easily treatable. Maybe we can stop growing a monoculture of humans where the slightest deviation from the norm must be treated with some kind of drug. Yes, yes, and vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry plot, and all the rest. I am really tired of this amateur-hour analysis from people who can't even be bothered to muster up a citation for their hand-waving argument.

PixelPusher 13y ago
Go anywhere outside of the US and Europe and they would laugh at you. Our culture (hispanic) takes it as a sign of weakness and petty complaints. Most people are too worried trying to feed themselves or their families to even think about being depressed. Furthermore, with the little money they have they tend to go to doctors for diseases that directly affect their bodies or ability to earn.
linuxhansl 13y ago
Yes, yes, and vaccines are a pharmaceutical industry plot, and all the rest. I have neither said nor implied this anywhere.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  And yet you're employing the same basic argument.
uniclaude 13y ago
What you should think about is that for one person like yours that stays untreated with your ADHD, in the US there might be a lot of kids forced to undergo treatments for what is no real ADHD. I grew up in Europe, and I seriously think that I would have spent my life under a very high amount of drugs if I had been raised in the US. I'm very glad I didn't have to go through this, because in Europe it is much more difficult to be recognized as someone having ADHD. So I'm sorry for you to have suffered, but I can't say I'm not happy I didn't. All of this said, I no I have no data to back this up, it's just a gut feeling.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

Denying the existence of mental disorders is dangerous and harmful to those who indeed have these disorders. And they are disorders. The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. The problems these disorders cause the individual are very real and unmistakeably negative. Sometimes this is muddied by people claiming schizophrenia, ADHD and bipolar disorder have "hidden benefits", especially creativity. Sometimes conspiracy nuts equate mental disorders with some kind of "dissident" behavior that has to be censors. It's not. These people suffer, and it's not only society that makes them suffer, but also their brain biology...

bradleyjg 13y ago
> The science on this is very strong. You see "clusters" of similar conditions in millions of human beings, where each of these clusters/diseases have similar problems, and they share potential remedies. Would that were true! In fact the science is not very strong at all. We have descriptive sets of symptoms and we have classes of drugs discovered serendipitously that seem to help some sufferers, but despite 30+ years of effort we have little more than post hoc justifications for mechanisms of action and underlying causes. The chemical imbalance theory has very little evidence going for it besides circular reasoning. We are at the point in the science of mental illness where we go and categorize things -- this animal has a spine, gives birth to live young, and is warm blooded -- okay put it in this order. We need a Darwin, or at least a Mendel.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  Depression for example is a very real problem for those affected. Several drugs are available which provide repeatable relief. Countless studies show, that suicide can be prevented through anti-depressants which mostly don't cause major side effects, leaving the patient much better off. A lack of understanding why these drugs work does not mean that the diseases they are often successfully treating is "phony".
  - 13y ago

Daniel_Newby 13y ago

The "slightest deviation" hypothesis has been conclusively disproven. ADHD positive by American standards correlates with -10 IQ points, double the rate of serious injuries, much lower age of first pregnancy and much higher rates of promiscuity, dramatically lower rates of high school (secondary school) graduation, almost total inability to complete a university degree, amd very high rates of criminal conviction (at least half of prisoners are ADHD positive). The American ADHD criteria are hard science, derived by looking at a syndrome of social failure and back-calculating diagnostic criteria. The European approach, in contrast, is based on Freudian dogma. I.e., weapons grade malarkey.

linuxhansl 13y ago

To many of the commenters, have a look at this: http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html This is from the CDC. * 9.5 of all kids diagnosed with ADHD * 13.2% of boys * 22% increase of children with a parent-reported ADHD diagnosis between 2003 and 2007 Really? You think this is OK?