6 ms·

It's funny you should mention that last part, because that's exactly the situation in Denmark. We have in my opinion a waaay too high basic income, and there is

It's funny you should mention that last part, because that's exactly the situation in Denmark. We have in my opinion a waaay too high basic income, and there is a growing problem, with people who'd rather live on governement payouts, than get a job. And the nationalists are getting anxious about immigration, so there is a populist party that is against immigration, that is getting bigger and bigger support. It is overall a shitty situation.

rmchugh 13y ago
The problem is not that people would rather live on government payouts, none of the unemployed people I know here want to be unemployed. The problem is that there are not jobs for their skillsets. The solution to this is retraining rather than cutting benefits. There are also people with mental health issues, substance abuse issues etc, but that is another issue. In terms of immigration, I think the bigger problem is the Danish labour movement's structural inability to organise migrant workers. This prevents these workers from raising their wages through collective bargaining, thus preserving their comparative advantage over Danish workers. Compare this to the situation in Norway where the construction workers have successfully organised migrant workers, leading to no comparable fall in income for Norwegian workers.
- Systemic33 13y ago
  Google "lazy robert", and you'll find lots of articles on a case that highlights the problem in Denmark. It is pretty straight forward problem; there isn't an incentive to pick the low (but mind you still sufficient) paying jobs. When the only job you can get is at a McDonald's, and you get more from not working at all, there is a serious problem. For anyone in the US; In Denmark, there is practically no jobs that pay so little, as to be insufficient for keeping a humane standard. And anyone who argues otherwise, simply doesn't know how it is outside Denmark.
  - rmchugh 13y ago
    Actually, you're wrong. According to this article (http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis.php?page=all http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis....) "The average full-time equivalent McDonald’s employee in Denmark makes about $45,000 a year in total compensation." If you are on bistand (Danish unemployment benefit) you get about $22,894 per year (https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx). Obviously the figure is higher if you are on dagpenge (unemployment insurance), but this is not directly comparable to the dole since it is partly financed by workers through AKasse membership. As regards Doven Robert, I'm well aware of his case, but one lazy punk with a talent for self-promotion is not representative of unemployed people in general. This is the intellectual habit that leads people to say, "but it was cold today, therefore there is no such thing as global warming!".
    - Systemic33 13y ago
      You don't have to earn the same thing for it not to be incentive enough, you have to take into consideration that living on government money means you then have week of for being lazy.
      - rmchugh 13y ago
        Do you have any evidence for what you're saying or is it just ideology speaking? Being on bistand does not mean having the week off. It means regular meetings in the job centre, a fixed quota of job applications to submit and often forced activation involving CV writing courses and other drudgery. It is not fun. I really don't know what you have against unemployed people, but try and remember that you could be in their situation if you are unlucky in the job market when you graduate. Best of luck with your career.
Camillo 13y ago
As a member of the EU, how do you keep people from other EU countries from just moving to Denmark and claiming benefits?
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  Simply crossing borders doesn't give you citizenship.
  - Ras_ 13y ago
    Ok Denmark, but overall the issue is valid. For example Finland has residency-based welfare aka no citizenship needed. Just read a headline last week claiming that Finland pays more welfare to Estonians than Estonia itself. Meaning Estonian citizens who live in Finland. Most came here to work but are now unemployed. You can't come here for welfare, but if you lose your livelihood soon after you are safe.
- mercurial 13y ago
  A citizen of the EU can get a registration certificate if (s)he [1]: > is in paid employment > is self-employed > provides services in Denmark > is a retired worker, retired self-employed person or retired service provider > has been seconded > is a student at an educational institution accredited or financed by public authorities, and s/he is able to support him/herself during the period of residence in Denmark or > disposes of such sufficient income or means so that s/he is presumed not to become a burden on the public authorities There is also a family reunification clause, which I've been told is very rarely granted. As for the registration certificate, it gives you a social security number, without which you are a non-person in Denmark. In general, the previous Conservative, extreme right-wing supported government toughened the laws on immigration. 1: http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/eu_and_nordic_citizens/eu-eea_citizens/ http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/eu_and_nordic_ci...
scarmig 13y ago
Denmark does not have a basic income.
- Systemic33 13y ago
  Indeed that is correct, my comment wasn't fully inline with the thread topic, but since government aid, basic income, and national immigration politics are very much intertwined, I thought my comment would have value to the discussion.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    If you want your comment to add value to the discussion you should edit your comment that says that Denmark has basic income, since apparently it does not.
    - Systemic33 13y ago
      Apparently it isn't possible to edit my comment, there's only edit link for my previous comment. It's true that Denmark doesn't have minimal basic income by law, but since most jobs are unionized, the unions have set a basic income. See this translated version of minimum wage on the danish wikipedia [1]. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fda.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMinimumsl%25C3%25B8n http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...

rmchugh 13y ago

The problem is not that people would rather live on government payouts, none of the unemployed people I know here want to be unemployed. The problem is that there are not jobs for their skillsets. The solution to this is retraining rather than cutting benefits. There are also people with mental health issues, substance abuse issues etc, but that is another issue. In terms of immigration, I think the bigger problem is the Danish labour movement's structural inability to organise migrant workers. This prevents these workers from raising their wages through collective bargaining, thus preserving their comparative advantage over Danish workers. Compare this to the situation in Norway where the construction workers have successfully organised migrant workers, leading to no comparable fall in income for Norwegian workers.

Systemic33 13y ago
Google "lazy robert", and you'll find lots of articles on a case that highlights the problem in Denmark. It is pretty straight forward problem; there isn't an incentive to pick the low (but mind you still sufficient) paying jobs. When the only job you can get is at a McDonald's, and you get more from not working at all, there is a serious problem. For anyone in the US; In Denmark, there is practically no jobs that pay so little, as to be insufficient for keeping a humane standard. And anyone who argues otherwise, simply doesn't know how it is outside Denmark.
- rmchugh 13y ago
  Actually, you're wrong. According to this article (http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis.php?page=all http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/the_minimum_wage_and_the_danis....) "The average full-time equivalent McDonald’s employee in Denmark makes about $45,000 a year in total compensation." If you are on bistand (Danish unemployment benefit) you get about $22,894 per year (https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx https://www.borger.dk/Sider/Kontanthjaelp.aspx). Obviously the figure is higher if you are on dagpenge (unemployment insurance), but this is not directly comparable to the dole since it is partly financed by workers through AKasse membership. As regards Doven Robert, I'm well aware of his case, but one lazy punk with a talent for self-promotion is not representative of unemployed people in general. This is the intellectual habit that leads people to say, "but it was cold today, therefore there is no such thing as global warming!".
  - Systemic33 13y ago
    You don't have to earn the same thing for it not to be incentive enough, you have to take into consideration that living on government money means you then have week of for being lazy.
    - rmchugh 13y ago
      Do you have any evidence for what you're saying or is it just ideology speaking? Being on bistand does not mean having the week off. It means regular meetings in the job centre, a fixed quota of job applications to submit and often forced activation involving CV writing courses and other drudgery. It is not fun. I really don't know what you have against unemployed people, but try and remember that you could be in their situation if you are unlucky in the job market when you graduate. Best of luck with your career.

Camillo 13y ago

As a member of the EU, how do you keep people from other EU countries from just moving to Denmark and claiming benefits?

ricardobeat 13y ago
Simply crossing borders doesn't give you citizenship.
- Ras_ 13y ago
  Ok Denmark, but overall the issue is valid. For example Finland has residency-based welfare aka no citizenship needed. Just read a headline last week claiming that Finland pays more welfare to Estonians than Estonia itself. Meaning Estonian citizens who live in Finland. Most came here to work but are now unemployed. You can't come here for welfare, but if you lose your livelihood soon after you are safe.
mercurial 13y ago
A citizen of the EU can get a registration certificate if (s)he [1]: > is in paid employment > is self-employed > provides services in Denmark > is a retired worker, retired self-employed person or retired service provider > has been seconded > is a student at an educational institution accredited or financed by public authorities, and s/he is able to support him/herself during the period of residence in Denmark or > disposes of such sufficient income or means so that s/he is presumed not to become a burden on the public authorities There is also a family reunification clause, which I've been told is very rarely granted. As for the registration certificate, it gives you a social security number, without which you are a non-person in Denmark. In general, the previous Conservative, extreme right-wing supported government toughened the laws on immigration. 1: http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/eu_and_nordic_citizens/eu-eea_citizens/ http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/eu_and_nordic_ci...

scarmig 13y ago

Denmark does not have a basic income.

Systemic33 13y ago
Indeed that is correct, my comment wasn't fully inline with the thread topic, but since government aid, basic income, and national immigration politics are very much intertwined, I thought my comment would have value to the discussion.
- Dewie 13y ago
  If you want your comment to add value to the discussion you should edit your comment that says that Denmark has basic income, since apparently it does not.
  - Systemic33 13y ago
    Apparently it isn't possible to edit my comment, there's only edit link for my previous comment. It's true that Denmark doesn't have minimal basic income by law, but since most jobs are unionized, the unions have set a basic income. See this translated version of minimum wage on the danish wikipedia [1]. [1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fda.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMinimumsl%25C3%25B8n http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...