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I would counter with, "How dare you assume that all Tesla drivers have disposable income to throw around". I happen to be close to buying one and know a few oth

• dandelany 13y ago
  You're missing the point - he's not actually making that argument, he's showing how easy it is to make any argument if you back it up with anecdotal conjecture rather than data.
  • eridius 13y ago
    Exactly. I rather suspect that Tesla drivers are actually comparable to other drivers, rather than being demonstrably better or worse, but the only way to know would be to actually conduct a study on the subject.
    • vacri 13y ago
      They will be demographically better if they're older, simply due to experience. If you look at insurance, the ridiculously expensive demographic is the male <25-year-old segment. If tesla drivers are underrepresented here - likely, since they're a luxury car at the moment - then yes, it's pretty safe to say that tesla drivers are more experienced, safer drivers.
• 001sky 13y ago
  Do not assume just because someone is able to get enough money to buy something expensive,that they have tons of money. Or sense. Or street smarts. That was the OP's point.
• sanderjd 13y ago
  Are you claiming that you have analyzed the Model S and found that due to money saved on gas it is financially cheaper than a conventional car over some timescale? If not, then I truly don't know what you're talking about. I'm really confused by "average, middleish class people who normally would have bought a porsche or a tesla" - is that a typo? Did you mean "would not normally"? If not, your idea of "average middleish class people" is really oddly out of whack. Many people by homes because of a calculation that owning a home is cheaper in the long run than paying rent over that same period of time. Many people buy homes not based on such a calculation and simply because they have disposable income and owning a home is nice. Many people also buy homes based on neither financial decision-making nor disposable income, and I seem to recall this having some negative impacts on our economy a few years back, which may make it a poor analogy to why it makes sense to buy a Tesla (or a porsche?!) without disposable income.
  • SEJeff 13y ago
    I work in technology and would be considered by some (not myself) a Linux expert. I am most certainly not upper class, but I am by no means lower class. I have several friends who also work in tech in similar roles for financial companies (like myself). One of them drives a BMV M5, one of them drives a used porsche 911 turbo. It isn't that a porsche or bmw is more or less expensive. It is something that they save up to buy for themselves. A normal car or a tesla both solve my needs, but a tesla is sure as hell a lot cooler for the sheer amount of tech and engineering. I don't really see where you think I claimed to see any money would be saved by a model S. I never alluded to anything of the sort. But I think this is OT and isn't really productive. Lets focus on tech here at HN and leave the flames for /., where they belong.
    • kingkawn 13y ago
      Not being among the richest people you know does not make you middle class.
    • nknighthb 13y ago
      Without looking, I'd like you to guess what the median personal income in the United States is, and then guess what the median household income is. Then go look up the real numbers. I suspect you're in for a surprise.
• farinasa 13y ago
  If you make >100k, I can assure you, you are not middle class. You are part of the "not rich enough" class. This class has a lot of money and can reasonably do anything they want, but compare themselves to the ultra rich and think "I'm not rich". The problem is they are always looking up and forget to look down. I grew up in a ~30k household in the 90's. Something I would call lower middle class. Upper middle class is probably ~70k-100k.
  • nilkn 13y ago
    Please tell me you're taking into account cost of living here. $100k does not go very far in San Francisco and Manhattan. Nobody making $100k in those places could reasonably afford a Tesla without severe over-spending (which they're welcome to do if they want to--whatever floats your boat). If you view the middle class as owning detached single family homes with yards, you would be lower middle class at best in those cities at $100k. If your spouse also made $100k, you could afford the crappiest single family home that was still livable. But it's a really good salary in Denver or Houston; you could definitely find a nice house to buy and afford comfortably, though it might have a bit of a commute. If your spouse also made $100k, you could afford a nice home in any neighborhood with no commute. And it might nearly qualify you as wealthy in a small rural town of 15k people total, where you would never need to spend more than $150k on any house.
    • farinasa 13y ago
      Of course it's not a universal statement. Estimates are never aimed at outliers.
      • mixmastamyk 13y ago
        People in San Francisco, Manhattan, and London are a major constituency here... not outliers.
        • joshred 13y ago
          Population of earth: 7.1 billion. Population of San Francisco: 0.8 Million. Population of Manhattan: 1.6 Million. Population of London: 8.1 million. Percentage of the world's population living in either San Francisco, Manhattan or London: ~0.0015% Exactly what do you think an outlier is? If you live in one of those three urban areas, you're already a member of an elite class.
• auctiontheory 13y ago
  When people talk about a Silicon Valley "bubble," part of what they're talking about is that a Tesla driver, BMW M5 driver, and Porsche 911 driver can believe that they are "average middleish class people." When one tiny sliver of society (web engineers) simultaneously wields so much influence (as web companies do) and is so cut off from the reality of America (as you apparently are), it doesn't bode well.
  • ruswick 13y ago
    This is so true. I'm currently a student and am sort of terrified to join the workforce in this industry. I really have no desire to surround myself with people who are so ignorant of and inured to the way real fucking people live. As someone who spent the majority of their childhood in poverty and was homeless for an extended period of time, this sort of hubris is profoundly saddening. It's very upsetting how abundant this form of arrogance is in the tech industry.
    • mattlutze 13y ago
      Luckily, there's a vast, vast array of options other than going to Silicon Valley. Any city decent sized city around the globe will have options available. Outside of a couple critical mass areas in the US -- I'm thinking SV, greater Boston, NYC (just because everyone there is in their own little bubble ;) ) -- it's just another job. And if you're not in the US, I wouldn't even know where this sort of SV halo exists.
• ruswick 13y ago
  The average yearly income in the US is $43,000. The base price of a Model S is $63,000. There is simply no way to afford a Tesla as an average, middle-class laborer without making massive tradeoffs in quality of life elsewhere. If you can afford a car that costs such an absurd amount of money, you are either living in squalor to afford it or you are not middle class. It's tiring to see people who are obviously the beneficiaries of economic privilege pretend as though they are "average." You are not, and to assert that you are demonstrates a fundamental ignorance about the difficulties that "average" people face. As for the house argument, you and I both know that the two are totally incomparable. Putting a roof on your head is a much bigger priority than buying an electric supercar. People need to pay for shelter. They generally can't afford to pay a lot for luxury cars. If you argument is true, why isn't everyone buying $63,000 cars? (Not to mention the millions of people who can't even afford homes.) Your posts demonstrates everything that is wrong with class stratification in America. I don't think you or your friends who elected to choose Teslas over Porches know what it means to be "average."
  • declan 13y ago
    I know a local gardener/landscaper laborer in the SF bay area who makes $25 an hour in cash by working after hours. If a Tesla lease is $600 a month (the website says that, but it's based on some assumptions including where you live), he would have to work about five hours a week extra to afford a Model S. That means this SF bay area laborer must give up a Saturday or Sunday afternoon every week, but it's hardly impossible "to afford" or a "massive tradeoff in quality of life." On the other hand, it's challenging to haul a few thousand pounds of mulch in a Tesla, I expect.
    • encoderer 13y ago
      Ok, so if you commit tax evasion in an all-cash business, you too can work just an extra 1/2 week every month to lease a tesla, after factoring in the tax breaks EXCEPT... from my 5 minutes of research, the $7500 tax credit is not a refundable credit so in his all cash business if he's not at least paying $7500 a year in federal income taxes, he won't get the full benefit of that credit. Oh, and the $600/mo assumes a $7100 down payment, which needless to say is far more than the average down payment on a car and is really more like what the average american puts down on a HOUSE. In other words: c'mon. Not to mention the opportunity cost of that money. If you're making $25/hr in SF you do not have a high standard of living, especially when compared to your neighbors which, studies have shown, is exactly how we measure our own financial happiness.
• wpietri 13y ago
  Wha? A low-end Prius is ~$20k. A low-end Tesla is ~$65k. The US median household income is ~$45k. If you can afford to spend the average household's entire annual income on a car coolness upgrade, then yes, you have disposable income to throw around, and no, you're not middle class.