6 ms·

The Time I “Interviewed” At Apple

90 points by nikunjk 13y ago

JonFish85 13y ago
> And how they’ll need to change the questions they ask of potential senior execs in order to bring in some of the mentality required to iterate towards excellence in public as opposed to behind closed doors. I feel like, with possibly the exception of the iPhone, Apple's magic sauce has been to let others launch first and learn from their mistakes, iterate in private until they have their product as close to perfection as they can, then release it. They weren't the first computer. They weren't the first MP3 player. They weren't the first place to buy songs online. They weren't the first to make a smartphone. They weren't the first to make a tablet. Granted these weren't software services for the most part, they were hardware. But in the same sense, Apple does a lot of development in the background almost by design, so they can storm the set and have a polished product ready to go (with some exceptions, notably Mobile Me). This "iterating on the fly" web thing is a software mentality. I'd argue that Apple is first & foremost a hardware company. Once you release the hardware, you're stuck with it for better or worse. There's no such "ship it before it's ready and fix it later" mindset in hardware.
- twrkit 13y ago
  >I'd argue that Apple is first & foremost a hardware company I would argue that Apple is primarily a software company. Sure, they do offer nice, polished hardware touches like Retina display, TouchID, unibody aluminum enclosures, but the actual components are the same as commodity PC hardware. Further, companies like Samsung are making phone with bigger screens and (ostensibly) faster processors. What people are paying a premium for is the Experience (well, and the Brand) - in OS X, things "just work," and the OS is generally more stable and user friendly than Windows. Similarly with iOS, at least before iOS7, the design choices that were made by Ive and Co allowed the mass market to intuitively use a smartphone.
redthrowaway 13y ago
I really can't see Apple adopting a more iterative approach to product development. "Perfect the first time" is so deeply engrained in their corporate identity that the CEO feels the need to personally apologize when they don't achieve it (see: Apple Maps). Compare that to the new Google Maps, which was pretty shitty when it went to open beta but has been getting progressively less so. Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  > Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not. Also an excellent point. The reason people line up for many hours for the privilege of spending $500 is because they expect perfection. These are the consumers that Apple has courted, and so far they have reaped the rewards from it by earning the trust of their users. To change that would damage their brand in a huge way.
- jaredsohn 13y ago
  I think the Apple Maps situation is a little different since they actually took away the product people were previously using.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > "Perfect the first time" is so deeply engrained in their corporate identity that the CEO feels the need to personally apologize when they don't achieve it (see: Apple Maps). Apple Maps wasn't a failure of "perfect the first time", it was a failure of iteration: it was an existing Apple app using Google data that, as part of an OS update, Apple "upgraded" with a new version using non-Google data that performed, in many users opinion, less well than the previous version. > Compare that to the new Google Maps, which was pretty shitty when it went to open beta but has been getting progressively less so. When Google maps was released to "open beta", it wasn't a new version of base app delivered as part of the OS bundled into a premium-priced hardware device that was widely seen as a downgrade in functionality from the prior version. It was a free web application that added to, rather than replacing, the existing options in the space. > Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not. Google's users get mad when they perceive Google to make products worse in subsequent versions just as much as Apple users do. Google tends not to put premium price tags on its first public release of products, while Apple does, and people paying premium prices for products are less inclined to grant the maker slack.
auctiontheory 13y ago
While I have three Apple products within arm's reach of me, including the one I'm using to type this post, none of them is "perfect!"
replicatorblog 13y ago
I wonder if this notion that Apple needs to "get" web services to survive will really matter in the long run? It's the conventional wisdom, just like that they "lost" the PC wars even though they've been the most profitable PC maker for a decade now. There haven't been many web services that have lasted for a decade or more in a dominant position. Might Apple's best long term strategy to... 1. Support/innovate the heck out of browser/web connectivity software 2. Push the boundaries of input devices and make the best hardware 3. Secure content deals with popular artists 4. Continue to expand their retail/service footprint 5. Let the various waves of social networks rise and fall, but make money on every device sold? Even the Android hegemon, which supposedly poses an existential threat, could easily fracture if Samsung decides to go their own way. Apple's position would be better with a firm control of key web services, but I'm not sure it's a requirement.
- dannyr 13y ago
  Look at people's IPhones. A lot of its users use apps not built by Apple. Search, Mail, Social Network, Maps, Photo-sharing, etc. Yeah, Apple will always make tons of money but IPhone/IPad will become just a device that hosts these apps. If most of the apps people need are available in another platform, the costs of switching is going to be low.
  - replicatorblog 13y ago
    For sure, but can't the same be said of their Mac lines? I'm sure iOS will always be a minority in terms of market share, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are the dominant player in the part of the market where people actually PAY for their product compared to free Android phones. The tablet market is a good example of this, aside from Kindle's no Android tablet has really taken off and I think it's because of some of those points I enumerated above.
    - dannyr 13y ago
      "no Android tablet has really taken off" FYI, Android tablet has larger market share than the IPad now. If you're narrowing it to just one brand/model, you're right. But Android tablets in general are selling a ton.
CamperBob2 13y ago
> I was skeptical ... Namely, I was used to web speed: iterative, launch before perfection, leverage your community. If that's not a one-sentence summary of the iPhone's release history, I don't know what is.
- lazerwalker 13y ago
  It's a subtle difference. Web startups tend to release individual features before they're polished. Apple releases products that have fewer features than one would expect ("launch before perfection"), but the few features they do have tend to be polished.
- untog 13y ago
  I certainly don't think something that changes once a year is 'iterative' in the way he was referring to.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    The original iPhone got better at a very rapid pace, through iOS updates.
throwaway1979 13y ago
Best post I've read on HN in a while! I think there is a fundamental difference between building hardware+system software vs. building web services and apps. In the former case, you have to get it right and then release. In the latter case, you can afford to iterate for a while as you keep getting better. Some of the hardware I've bought from Google has made me feel like I'm beta testing it. I don't get that feeling when I buy Apple hardware. This makes me wonder if other players in the Android space are following Apple's playback. The specific player I am thinking about is Samsung. Why are they doing so well where other Android manufacturers are doing just okay?
- hunterwalk 13y ago
  yup - the Apple way works well on hardware and even on operating systems. My post is more about my own experiences on how they'll either embrace different styles (or not) for software application development.
NDizzle 13y ago
Only meeting with 2 people and only spending an hour on site. This is probably the best interview process I'll read about in the next few weeks on HN.
- mikestew 13y ago
  Don't get your hopes up. The rest of us grunts still get to spend an entire day in front of a whiteboard at Apple, at least as of about a year ago.
  - hunterwalk 13y ago
    ha! well, it was only an hour w two people for both sides to mutually figure out I wasn't a good fit. Probably would have taken longer if it went forward :-)
001sky 13y ago
I walked them through my opinion of how technology was changing media and creating open, global platforms.
danso 13y ago
> Despite knowing going in that this wasn’t likely going to lead to anything, I’m still glad I took the time – you learn a lot by observing how companies hire. Driving away from their HQ I left thinking how difficult consumer services were going to continue to be for them if they insisted on perfection before release. I still think of this every time I use Dropbox instead of iCloud, Sunrise instead of Calendar, Mailbox instead of Mail and so on. Even when I look at iMessage and wonder why the fastest growing apps are chat-related (don’t tell me it’s just cross platform, I think Apple could have been way more aggressive with evolving and opening iMessage up). Hmmm...when I use the aforementioned services, I have the opposite assumption...that Apple is not at all insisting on perfection before release...and is sometimes OK with substandard releases. It's the promotion of these services as being perfect that Apple seems to be better at...or at least readying these services so that in many/most use cases, they seem perfect to the casual end user. But I think developers who have worked with iCloud, for instance, would argue strenuously that iCloud was not released in a robust state. As another anecdotal point...buying an iPod 5 made me realize how perfection is not necessarily Apple's goal, even in hardware. The previous iPod touch, and the iPhones, all had ambient light sensors...this was dropped in iPod 5...this seems like a minor feature but only if you don't go in and out of buildings during the day. Unless I remember to jack up the brightness on my iPod before going out during the day, I literally will not be able to see anything on the iPod screen, unless I go back inside or the day gets darker. Moreover, switching the brightness has been moved out of the quick-nav and buried in Settings. This is such a massive inconvenience that I can't help but think that Apple was on deadline and for some reason, couldn't fit in the ambient light sensor, and then said, "fuck it, just ship it"
crazygringo 13y ago
> ...how difficult consumer services were going to continue to be for them if they insisted on perfection before release. I still think of this every time I use Dropbox instead of iCloud... There's a big difference between startups iterating, and giants like Apple. I think we all remember how they were excoriated on the Maps release, which certainly wasn't perfect. Because of their scale, Apple doesn't have the kind of flexibility that unknown startups do -- not just because of their scale, but also because most of their software isn't solely web-based, but is tied into software that is sold with hardware which is released yearly. I agree that they have a difficult time with a lot of consumer services. But I don't think it's nearly as simple as the author suggests.
- badman_ting 13y ago
  Good point, and Maps is a good example. Apple's whole image is around "it just works", so things are expected to just work. "If you're not embarrassed by it, you waited too long to release it" doesn't really work in Apple's case.
  - rohansingh 13y ago
    I actually don't think Maps is a good example. I'd argue that Apple wouldn't have taken such heat and criticism if they'd launch Maps as an independent app, worked to iterate and improve it, and then baked it into iOS as a Google Maps replacement when it was good and ready.
    - MikeCapone 13y ago
      It's very likely that their hand was forced by Google's contract renewal.
      - sejje 13y ago
        Doesn't seem to change his point.
        13y ago
xvolter 13y ago
I believe Apple fanboys are those who always have the latest Apple products, as hunterwalk describes he has. Seems to me he is just a closet fanboy. Apparently he doesn't actually care if Apple opens up at all, he'll stick with them and support them regardless.
Create 13y ago
Hunter Walk 99% Humble, 1% Brag The Time I “Interviewed” At Apple Posted on October 4, 2013 by hunterwalk I’m writing this from my latest gen macbook air. And I have a 5S coming (goldie baby). -- No BS like HBS
nfoz 13y ago
God I hope Apple doesn't start releasing shoddy beta-quality software like we've all been forced to expect from the web.
lostlogin 13y ago
Someone is proud of the YouTube UI? I avoid it if I can. There is the intro advert I can't skip for 10 seconds, the banner, the ones down the side. How could anyone claim users drove that development?
codelust 13y ago
Going through the comments (and most of the HN comments on platforms that tend to divide people), I still find it deeply distressing that even geeks/nerds chase hard after the one-true-way approach. You don't see one true type of bread, you don't see one true type of car, you don't see one true type of anything. Yet, when it comes to things like mobile phones and platforms, we behave like absolute twerps. People have different circumstances, levels of understanding and fifty to the power of three other factors that determine their choices in life. We want to ignore all of that and dismiss every person who does not see the same merits that we do. And that is sad beyond what can be expressed in words. Can you imagine in a world in which it makes sense to have both the Apple and Google approach? If you cannot, you should step out and see a lot more of the real world. Choices, no matter how disagreeable or flawed, are welcome in a more open world. I hope we will all, eventually, understand that, even if we don't like what that understanding allows for.
YeeHaw 13y ago
I'm happy that at least one company tries to get it right BEFORE unleashing its products on the public. From my experience, the iterative approach often means that a bunch of casual users are given as much input into a design as the designer who devotes months or even years to trying to solve a problem holistically. Iterative design usually means Frankenstein design, that is, a product with way too many unnecessary features, a lack of cohesion and just plain ugliness. The iPhone could not have been created iteratively, and even if it had been, it certainly wouldn't have had the design impact it did. I don't think Google is even on the same planet as Apple, design-wise.
vitd 13y ago
Reading this leaves me feeling like the author has some enormous cognitive dissonance going on: "And finally I defended some of YouTube’s UX elements by demonstrating how it needed to feel like the community’s fingerprints were on the site, not just some experience they lean back and watch but don’t touch." Every Google service is an experience where Google just leans back and watches but doesn't touch. They have no tech support, not even an email to write to in most cases. What a baffling statement to make.

90 points by nikunjk 13y ago

> And how they’ll need to change the questions they ask of potential senior execs in order to bring in some of the mentality required to iterate towards excellence in public as opposed to behind closed doors. I feel like, with possibly the exception of the iPhone, Apple's magic sauce has been to let others launch first and learn from their mistakes, iterate in private until they have their product as close to perfection as they can, then release it. They weren't the first computer. They weren't the first MP3 player. They weren't the first place to buy songs online. They weren't the first to make a smartphone. They weren't the first to make a tablet. Granted these weren't software services for the most part, they were hardware. But in the same sense, Apple does a lot of development in the background almost by design, so they can storm the set and have a polished product ready to go (with some exceptions, notably Mobile Me). This "iterating on the fly" web thing is a software mentality. I'd argue that Apple is first & foremost a hardware company. Once you release the hardware, you're stuck with it for better or worse. There's no such "ship it before it's ready and fix it later" mindset in hardware.

twrkit 13y ago
>I'd argue that Apple is first & foremost a hardware company I would argue that Apple is primarily a software company. Sure, they do offer nice, polished hardware touches like Retina display, TouchID, unibody aluminum enclosures, but the actual components are the same as commodity PC hardware. Further, companies like Samsung are making phone with bigger screens and (ostensibly) faster processors. What people are paying a premium for is the Experience (well, and the Brand) - in OS X, things "just work," and the OS is generally more stable and user friendly than Windows. Similarly with iOS, at least before iOS7, the design choices that were made by Ive and Co allowed the mass market to intuitively use a smartphone.

redthrowaway 13y ago

I really can't see Apple adopting a more iterative approach to product development. "Perfect the first time" is so deeply engrained in their corporate identity that the CEO feels the need to personally apologize when they don't achieve it (see: Apple Maps). Compare that to the new Google Maps, which was pretty shitty when it went to open beta but has been getting progressively less so. Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not.

JonFish85 13y ago
> Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not. Also an excellent point. The reason people line up for many hours for the privilege of spending $500 is because they expect perfection. These are the consumers that Apple has courted, and so far they have reaped the rewards from it by earning the trust of their users. To change that would damage their brand in a huge way.
jaredsohn 13y ago
I think the Apple Maps situation is a little different since they actually took away the product people were previously using.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> "Perfect the first time" is so deeply engrained in their corporate identity that the CEO feels the need to personally apologize when they don't achieve it (see: Apple Maps). Apple Maps wasn't a failure of "perfect the first time", it was a failure of iteration: it was an existing Apple app using Google data that, as part of an OS update, Apple "upgraded" with a new version using non-Google data that performed, in many users opinion, less well than the previous version. > Compare that to the new Google Maps, which was pretty shitty when it went to open beta but has been getting progressively less so. When Google maps was released to "open beta", it wasn't a new version of base app delivered as part of the OS bundled into a premium-priced hardware device that was widely seen as a downgrade in functionality from the prior version. It was a free web application that added to, rather than replacing, the existing options in the space. > Google's users cut Google the necessary slack to allow them to release imperfect products and improve on them. Apple's do not. Google's users get mad when they perceive Google to make products worse in subsequent versions just as much as Apple users do. Google tends not to put premium price tags on its first public release of products, while Apple does, and people paying premium prices for products are less inclined to grant the maker slack.

auctiontheory 13y ago

While I have three Apple products within arm's reach of me, including the one I'm using to type this post, none of them is "perfect!"

replicatorblog 13y ago

I wonder if this notion that Apple needs to "get" web services to survive will really matter in the long run? It's the conventional wisdom, just like that they "lost" the PC wars even though they've been the most profitable PC maker for a decade now. There haven't been many web services that have lasted for a decade or more in a dominant position. Might Apple's best long term strategy to... 1. Support/innovate the heck out of browser/web connectivity software 2. Push the boundaries of input devices and make the best hardware 3. Secure content deals with popular artists 4. Continue to expand their retail/service footprint 5. Let the various waves of social networks rise and fall, but make money on every device sold? Even the Android hegemon, which supposedly poses an existential threat, could easily fracture if Samsung decides to go their own way. Apple's position would be better with a firm control of key web services, but I'm not sure it's a requirement.

dannyr 13y ago
Look at people's IPhones. A lot of its users use apps not built by Apple. Search, Mail, Social Network, Maps, Photo-sharing, etc. Yeah, Apple will always make tons of money but IPhone/IPad will become just a device that hosts these apps. If most of the apps people need are available in another platform, the costs of switching is going to be low.
- replicatorblog 13y ago
  For sure, but can't the same be said of their Mac lines? I'm sure iOS will always be a minority in terms of market share, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are the dominant player in the part of the market where people actually PAY for their product compared to free Android phones. The tablet market is a good example of this, aside from Kindle's no Android tablet has really taken off and I think it's because of some of those points I enumerated above.
  - dannyr 13y ago
    "no Android tablet has really taken off" FYI, Android tablet has larger market share than the IPad now. If you're narrowing it to just one brand/model, you're right. But Android tablets in general are selling a ton.

CamperBob2 13y ago

> I was skeptical ... Namely, I was used to web speed: iterative, launch before perfection, leverage your community. If that's not a one-sentence summary of the iPhone's release history, I don't know what is.

lazerwalker 13y ago
It's a subtle difference. Web startups tend to release individual features before they're polished. Apple releases products that have fewer features than one would expect ("launch before perfection"), but the few features they do have tend to be polished.
untog 13y ago
I certainly don't think something that changes once a year is 'iterative' in the way he was referring to.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  The original iPhone got better at a very rapid pace, through iOS updates.

throwaway1979 13y ago

Best post I've read on HN in a while! I think there is a fundamental difference between building hardware+system software vs. building web services and apps. In the former case, you have to get it right and then release. In the latter case, you can afford to iterate for a while as you keep getting better. Some of the hardware I've bought from Google has made me feel like I'm beta testing it. I don't get that feeling when I buy Apple hardware. This makes me wonder if other players in the Android space are following Apple's playback. The specific player I am thinking about is Samsung. Why are they doing so well where other Android manufacturers are doing just okay?

hunterwalk 13y ago
yup - the Apple way works well on hardware and even on operating systems. My post is more about my own experiences on how they'll either embrace different styles (or not) for software application development.

NDizzle 13y ago

Only meeting with 2 people and only spending an hour on site. This is probably the best interview process I'll read about in the next few weeks on HN.

mikestew 13y ago
Don't get your hopes up. The rest of us grunts still get to spend an entire day in front of a whiteboard at Apple, at least as of about a year ago.
- hunterwalk 13y ago
  ha! well, it was only an hour w two people for both sides to mutually figure out I wasn't a good fit. Probably would have taken longer if it went forward :-)

001sky 13y ago

I walked them through my opinion of how technology was changing media and creating open, global platforms.

danso 13y ago

> Despite knowing going in that this wasn’t likely going to lead to anything, I’m still glad I took the time – you learn a lot by observing how companies hire. Driving away from their HQ I left thinking how difficult consumer services were going to continue to be for them if they insisted on perfection before release. I still think of this every time I use Dropbox instead of iCloud, Sunrise instead of Calendar, Mailbox instead of Mail and so on. Even when I look at iMessage and wonder why the fastest growing apps are chat-related (don’t tell me it’s just cross platform, I think Apple could have been way more aggressive with evolving and opening iMessage up). Hmmm...when I use the aforementioned services, I have the opposite assumption...that Apple is not at all insisting on perfection before release...and is sometimes OK with substandard releases. It's the promotion of these services as being perfect that Apple seems to be better at...or at least readying these services so that in many/most use cases, they seem perfect to the casual end user. But I think developers who have worked with iCloud, for instance, would argue strenuously that iCloud was not released in a robust state. As another anecdotal point...buying an iPod 5 made me realize how perfection is not necessarily Apple's goal, even in hardware. The previous iPod touch, and the iPhones, all had ambient light sensors...this was dropped in iPod 5...this seems like a minor feature but only if you don't go in and out of buildings during the day. Unless I remember to jack up the brightness on my iPod before going out during the day, I literally will not be able to see anything on the iPod screen, unless I go back inside or the day gets darker. Moreover, switching the brightness has been moved out of the quick-nav and buried in Settings. This is such a massive inconvenience that I can't help but think that Apple was on deadline and for some reason, couldn't fit in the ambient light sensor, and then said, "fuck it, just ship it"

crazygringo 13y ago

> ...how difficult consumer services were going to continue to be for them if they insisted on perfection before release. I still think of this every time I use Dropbox instead of iCloud... There's a big difference between startups iterating, and giants like Apple. I think we all remember how they were excoriated on the Maps release, which certainly wasn't perfect. Because of their scale, Apple doesn't have the kind of flexibility that unknown startups do -- not just because of their scale, but also because most of their software isn't solely web-based, but is tied into software that is sold with hardware which is released yearly. I agree that they have a difficult time with a lot of consumer services. But I don't think it's nearly as simple as the author suggests.

badman_ting 13y ago
Good point, and Maps is a good example. Apple's whole image is around "it just works", so things are expected to just work. "If you're not embarrassed by it, you waited too long to release it" doesn't really work in Apple's case.
- rohansingh 13y ago
  I actually don't think Maps is a good example. I'd argue that Apple wouldn't have taken such heat and criticism if they'd launch Maps as an independent app, worked to iterate and improve it, and then baked it into iOS as a Google Maps replacement when it was good and ready.
  - MikeCapone 13y ago
    It's very likely that their hand was forced by Google's contract renewal.
    - sejje 13y ago
      Doesn't seem to change his point.
      - 13y ago

xvolter 13y ago

I believe Apple fanboys are those who always have the latest Apple products, as hunterwalk describes he has. Seems to me he is just a closet fanboy. Apparently he doesn't actually care if Apple opens up at all, he'll stick with them and support them regardless.

Create 13y ago

Hunter Walk 99% Humble, 1% Brag The Time I “Interviewed” At Apple Posted on October 4, 2013 by hunterwalk I’m writing this from my latest gen macbook air. And I have a 5S coming (goldie baby). -- No BS like HBS

nfoz 13y ago

God I hope Apple doesn't start releasing shoddy beta-quality software like we've all been forced to expect from the web.

lostlogin 13y ago

Someone is proud of the YouTube UI? I avoid it if I can. There is the intro advert I can't skip for 10 seconds, the banner, the ones down the side. How could anyone claim users drove that development?

codelust 13y ago

Going through the comments (and most of the HN comments on platforms that tend to divide people), I still find it deeply distressing that even geeks/nerds chase hard after the one-true-way approach. You don't see one true type of bread, you don't see one true type of car, you don't see one true type of anything. Yet, when it comes to things like mobile phones and platforms, we behave like absolute twerps. People have different circumstances, levels of understanding and fifty to the power of three other factors that determine their choices in life. We want to ignore all of that and dismiss every person who does not see the same merits that we do. And that is sad beyond what can be expressed in words. Can you imagine in a world in which it makes sense to have both the Apple and Google approach? If you cannot, you should step out and see a lot more of the real world. Choices, no matter how disagreeable or flawed, are welcome in a more open world. I hope we will all, eventually, understand that, even if we don't like what that understanding allows for.

YeeHaw 13y ago

I'm happy that at least one company tries to get it right BEFORE unleashing its products on the public. From my experience, the iterative approach often means that a bunch of casual users are given as much input into a design as the designer who devotes months or even years to trying to solve a problem holistically. Iterative design usually means Frankenstein design, that is, a product with way too many unnecessary features, a lack of cohesion and just plain ugliness. The iPhone could not have been created iteratively, and even if it had been, it certainly wouldn't have had the design impact it did. I don't think Google is even on the same planet as Apple, design-wise.

vitd 13y ago

Reading this leaves me feeling like the author has some enormous cognitive dissonance going on: "And finally I defended some of YouTube’s UX elements by demonstrating how it needed to feel like the community’s fingerprints were on the site, not just some experience they lean back and watch but don’t touch." Every Google service is an experience where Google just leans back and watches but doesn't touch. They have no tech support, not even an email to write to in most cases. What a baffling statement to make.