6 ms·

At Last, Facing Down Bullies (and Their Enablers)

15 points by robg 17y ago

jswinghammer 17y ago
I'm not sure what this would actually accomplish. I've been seeing articles lately where bullies are just ignored by schools even when repeatedly reported by parents. It seems like universal advice on this topic is unreasonable to begin with. I recall in high school where the school would only get involved when something too big to ignore came up like some kid getting thrown through a window or something (this happened twice). I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain. I don't think this is necessarily good advice but it might be the only option when the schools ignore these problems as a matter of de facto policy. Of course you could always home school and avoid this problem entirely :)
- jnorthrop 17y ago
  What I've told my kids is if they are being bullied get help from their friends -- not to fight back, but to help remove them from the situation. This is a difficult concept for them to grasp but I've been fortunate that my older son is friends with the bully victim so he's seen how this can work. What I suggested, and what he has done, is when the bully was picking on his friend to immediately go to his friend and get him out of there. He calls him over from a distance, or tells him he needs his help some where else. This is pre-planned with his friend so it occurs quickly and naturally. And you know what: It worked. The bully moved on to someone he could get a reaction from. Its hard to tell from the article but it sounds like the model to follow is this kind of approach.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    That approach seems compatible with the article, but if it didn't readily resolve the conflict, the article wants your kids to come to you, for you to go to the principal, and for you to make it clear that the principal --- not the parents --- is expected to decisively and permanently resolve the problem. The article defines "bullying" as repetitive, implying that whatever your kids are doing to try to address it, the conflict isn't resolving itself.
- antdaddy 17y ago
  'I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain' This is the exact advice I gave my son when he started middle school. I've also seen this advice given to convicts going to prison for the 1st time ;)
  - biohacker42 17y ago
    I remember the advice my family gave me before the first day of school. If anyone messes with you beat the hell out of them, if you have to don't hesitate to use a chair, make an example out of them. Now here's the funny thing: I am not kidding or exaggerating! Long story short, some kid looked at me wrong, I threw him against the wall and he slid down just like you see in cartoons. That was in first grade and I've never been bullied. But seriously, don't try this at home kids.
    - antdaddy 17y ago
      on reflection, the actual advice I gave my son was that if anyone ever hit him, he had my permission to hit back if necessary to defend himself. If a bully sees someone isn't willing to be a victim, they tend to move on to an easier target.
    - run4yourlives 17y ago
      There is defending yourself and then there is actually being the bully. Which were you, do you think?
      - biohacker42 17y ago
        Honestly? Bully. But not often.
        run4yourlives 17y ago
        Exactly. In that sense then I don't take your method to be something we should be teaching our children. No offence.
- tptacek 17y ago
  What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what. Why should my kids waste a moment's time trying to handle violence and physical intimidation on their own? That's teaching them to handle problems with both hands tied behind their back. I want my kids handling problems smart, and "fighting back" and standing up to bullies on their own terms is playing to lose. There is all sorts of low-grade kids-stuff nonsense that doesn't need to be escalated. But we're not talking about that here. We're talking about kids who are so persistently targeted and oppressed by this juvenile bullshit that they're considering withdrawing from academic programs. Fuck that shit. If my son tells me he's quitting band because he's getting pushed around over it, I am going fucking ballistic. (For whatever it's worth, both my kids spend a good chunk of their discretionary time in martial arts. But they're doing that on its own merits, not as a tool to deal with behavior that would be overtly criminal if it occurred between adults.)
  - JabavuAdams 17y ago
    > What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what. Remember, we're talking about a response to aggression. In an office, no one is likely to be shoving you in the first place. If someone is, then you are certainly justified in responding physically if you cannot remove yourself from the situation. You've seen the internet video where an office-worker rages out, hurting others, and everyone just stands around because they've been conditioned to never use violence? They finally react far too late.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      In the altogether likely event that the circumstances that started an office fight are ambiguous, if you respond physically to a low-grade physical assault, you are very possibly going to get fired yourself.
dhimes 17y ago
A website about the actual prevention program: http://www.clemson.edu/olweus/ http://www.clemson.edu/olweus/
- dhimes 17y ago
  perhaps better: http://www.olweus.org/public/index.page http://www.olweus.org/public/index.page As you can see, the program is for sale.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    That doesn't call the original work into question, if that's what you're implying.
    - dhimes 17y ago
      +1 for alerting me to a possible misinterpretation of my comment. I was curious why there wasn't a real description of the solution to the bullying problem in the article, so I followed the trail back to the originator. Turns out he's a bit entrepreneurial in using the model of business to bring his solution to the masses, and probably (I hope) allow him to better refine the solution as he goes. I'm trying to do the exact same thing. What struck me is that it seems plausible to me --and I'm fantasizing here-- that this story was suggested/planted/encouraged by his company as a PR move. This is what we should all be doing, and if he did it then he did it very well.
TallGuyShort 17y ago
I was bullied a lot when I was little, and when my parents complained to the school, it only got worse because the school handled it very publicly. As much as I hated it, the bullying turned me into a stronger person, and made me more aware of how I came off to others. I'm now very successful in what I do, and it's partly because I focused on excelling in my field, but also because I focused on improving my social skills. Although being a bully is a sign you have a social problem, being the victim made me aware of my own shortcomings, and I worked to correct them.
- tptacek 17y ago
  Getting shoved and pushed around by drunk assholes outside your apartment building every evening when you get home from work would probably also teach you to be a stronger person who could keep a level head under physical threat. But that situation, which parallels your school experience, unquestionably involves repeated criminal assault and battery. The mere fact that it is possible to draw life lessons from bullying does not mitigate it.
  - TallGuyShort 17y ago
    Oh not at all - I didn't mean that it should be left alone. What I mean is that there should be more emphasis on helping the victims grow from and overcome the experience, instead of just trying to prevent it altogether. The author of the article does touch on that, but I think it's generally absent from the minds of most people. "He's getting bullied at school". "Oh - have you called the school?" I'm not saying people should be complacent, I'm just saying that helping the victims is probably more important than other solutions. In my case, I always reacted the wrong way to bullying. I think that if I hadn't reacted the way I did, bullying would've stopped.
    - tptacek 17y ago
      Why should we teach people how to expend effort to overcome problems they shouldn't be confronted with in the first place? If somebody assaults you, you should press charges.
pasbesoin 17y ago
I experienced a strong case of PTSD and low self-esteem as the result of an extended period of quite pernicious and malicious bullying. In my case, the principal bully -- the leader of a pack who all engaged in the bullying -- was the son of a higher level school official; some of the school staff saw it occurring but took no action, I speculate out of fear of retribution. For my part, I was also confused and frustrated by the situation. I had no desire to fight the fellow, and I didn't understand where this aggression was coming from. I also literally didn't know how to fight. No one ever taught me even the basics. The psychological impact was strong enough that I will live with it, to some extent, for the rest of my life. My recommendations to a parent or mentor would include: + Ensure the child is trained in self-defense. I will not allow any child of mine to be without such training. The purpose is not to become aggressive and controlling of others. It is to learn to remain centered and in control of oneself, and hopefully in control of the situation. At least in control of one's reaction to it. + Understand that, per my limited reading, bullying is an effective social strategy. Perhaps that may change as society evolves, but it has and does serve the purpose of promoting the bully and gaining them certain rewards. Not that the bullying is necessarily a conscious, pre-meditated decision with such rewards as the known and expected outcome. However, it is not a purely pathological social aberration. As such, it is something that will appear and that will need to be addressed. Saying it is "wrong" and "unfair" does not help the victim in dealing with the situation. Creating a social structure that aids the victim while mediating the bullying does. However (again), the individual cannot count on others always fostering such a social structure. The individual needs to be able to take care of themself. From that standpoint, they may then also be in a position to help foster a social environment that mediates against bullying. + Modern society seems to me to have created a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" situation. Many parents' daily lives are so separated from those of their children. Kids spend 8, 10 hours away from their parents in social environments that are strongly weighted towards their peer group, with limited participation by teachers, coaches and such as supervising adults. An entire subculture develops largely independent of broader society. Kids can end up very vulnerable within this. And the culture's message and influence is often to not communicate problems to adults. This reinforces the isolation of the victim.
- kirse 17y ago
ixnu 17y ago
My son could have been the subject of the article. In 4th grade, he was constantly harassed by a single bully on the bus and in class. Unsurprisingly, all the cliches held: the bully had been in fights with most of the boys on the bus; the school was completely unresponsive to requests for intervention; and the parents of the bully didn't care. For the first time, I forced my son into an activity - martial arts. After a few months, it gave my son the confidence to stand his ground against his tormentor and fight back. Again, unsurprisingly, my son served his first, and the bully his fifth, suspension for violating the "zero tolerance" for throwing fists in school. It was a great life lesson about fairness. He has not had a problem since. Most kids, esp boys, will be bullied at some time, but I shuddered at the thought of my son being the constant target every year.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  He has not had a problem since. Key phrase in your comment.
bobochan 17y ago
I have pretty awful memories of bullying, fights, etc. from growing up and the tyranny of the schoolyard pack. I had visions of those scenarios when my own kids started public school but I’ve been very impressed with how the school has made creating a good environment a top priority. A couple of things that really impressed me: 1. At the first meeting the principal said that he wanted to know if a kid was having trouble fitting in, making friends. Creating a good environment where kids enjoyed coming to school was obviously a priority at the top of the organization. 2. In addition to all of the classic recess games like kickball and four square, the school put out some chess sets and got toys for the sandbox so that kids had alternatives. There was a playground rule, “can’t say can’t play” that instilled the notion that games were open to everyone. 3. Counselors entered the classrooms early to talk about things like conflict resolution at a level that the kids could understand. This approach seems light years ahead of what I remember as a kid. In short, I agree that schools can be very effective at eliminating bullying if it is a priority.

15 points by robg 17y ago

I'm not sure what this would actually accomplish. I've been seeing articles lately where bullies are just ignored by schools even when repeatedly reported by parents. It seems like universal advice on this topic is unreasonable to begin with. I recall in high school where the school would only get involved when something too big to ignore came up like some kid getting thrown through a window or something (this happened twice). I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain. I don't think this is necessarily good advice but it might be the only option when the schools ignore these problems as a matter of de facto policy. Of course you could always home school and avoid this problem entirely :)

jnorthrop 17y ago
What I've told my kids is if they are being bullied get help from their friends -- not to fight back, but to help remove them from the situation. This is a difficult concept for them to grasp but I've been fortunate that my older son is friends with the bully victim so he's seen how this can work. What I suggested, and what he has done, is when the bully was picking on his friend to immediately go to his friend and get him out of there. He calls him over from a distance, or tells him he needs his help some where else. This is pre-planned with his friend so it occurs quickly and naturally. And you know what: It worked. The bully moved on to someone he could get a reaction from. Its hard to tell from the article but it sounds like the model to follow is this kind of approach.
- tptacek 17y ago
  That approach seems compatible with the article, but if it didn't readily resolve the conflict, the article wants your kids to come to you, for you to go to the principal, and for you to make it clear that the principal --- not the parents --- is expected to decisively and permanently resolve the problem. The article defines "bullying" as repetitive, implying that whatever your kids are doing to try to address it, the conflict isn't resolving itself.
antdaddy 17y ago
'I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain' This is the exact advice I gave my son when he started middle school. I've also seen this advice given to convicts going to prison for the 1st time ;)
- biohacker42 17y ago
  I remember the advice my family gave me before the first day of school. If anyone messes with you beat the hell out of them, if you have to don't hesitate to use a chair, make an example out of them. Now here's the funny thing: I am not kidding or exaggerating! Long story short, some kid looked at me wrong, I threw him against the wall and he slid down just like you see in cartoons. That was in first grade and I've never been bullied. But seriously, don't try this at home kids.
  - antdaddy 17y ago
    on reflection, the actual advice I gave my son was that if anyone ever hit him, he had my permission to hit back if necessary to defend himself. If a bully sees someone isn't willing to be a victim, they tend to move on to an easier target.
  - run4yourlives 17y ago
    There is defending yourself and then there is actually being the bully. Which were you, do you think?
    - biohacker42 17y ago
      Honestly? Bully. But not often.
      - run4yourlives 17y ago
        Exactly. In that sense then I don't take your method to be something we should be teaching our children. No offence.
tptacek 17y ago
What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what. Why should my kids waste a moment's time trying to handle violence and physical intimidation on their own? That's teaching them to handle problems with both hands tied behind their back. I want my kids handling problems smart, and "fighting back" and standing up to bullies on their own terms is playing to lose. There is all sorts of low-grade kids-stuff nonsense that doesn't need to be escalated. But we're not talking about that here. We're talking about kids who are so persistently targeted and oppressed by this juvenile bullshit that they're considering withdrawing from academic programs. Fuck that shit. If my son tells me he's quitting band because he's getting pushed around over it, I am going fucking ballistic. (For whatever it's worth, both my kids spend a good chunk of their discretionary time in martial arts. But they're doing that on its own merits, not as a tool to deal with behavior that would be overtly criminal if it occurred between adults.)
- JabavuAdams 17y ago
  > What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what. Remember, we're talking about a response to aggression. In an office, no one is likely to be shoving you in the first place. If someone is, then you are certainly justified in responding physically if you cannot remove yourself from the situation. You've seen the internet video where an office-worker rages out, hurting others, and everyone just stands around because they've been conditioned to never use violence? They finally react far too late.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    In the altogether likely event that the circumstances that started an office fight are ambiguous, if you respond physically to a low-grade physical assault, you are very possibly going to get fired yourself.

dhimes 17y ago

A website about the actual prevention program: http://www.clemson.edu/olweus/ http://www.clemson.edu/olweus/

dhimes 17y ago
perhaps better: http://www.olweus.org/public/index.page http://www.olweus.org/public/index.page As you can see, the program is for sale.
- tptacek 17y ago
  That doesn't call the original work into question, if that's what you're implying.
  - dhimes 17y ago
    +1 for alerting me to a possible misinterpretation of my comment. I was curious why there wasn't a real description of the solution to the bullying problem in the article, so I followed the trail back to the originator. Turns out he's a bit entrepreneurial in using the model of business to bring his solution to the masses, and probably (I hope) allow him to better refine the solution as he goes. I'm trying to do the exact same thing. What struck me is that it seems plausible to me --and I'm fantasizing here-- that this story was suggested/planted/encouraged by his company as a PR move. This is what we should all be doing, and if he did it then he did it very well.

TallGuyShort 17y ago

I was bullied a lot when I was little, and when my parents complained to the school, it only got worse because the school handled it very publicly. As much as I hated it, the bullying turned me into a stronger person, and made me more aware of how I came off to others. I'm now very successful in what I do, and it's partly because I focused on excelling in my field, but also because I focused on improving my social skills. Although being a bully is a sign you have a social problem, being the victim made me aware of my own shortcomings, and I worked to correct them.

tptacek 17y ago
Getting shoved and pushed around by drunk assholes outside your apartment building every evening when you get home from work would probably also teach you to be a stronger person who could keep a level head under physical threat. But that situation, which parallels your school experience, unquestionably involves repeated criminal assault and battery. The mere fact that it is possible to draw life lessons from bullying does not mitigate it.
- TallGuyShort 17y ago
  Oh not at all - I didn't mean that it should be left alone. What I mean is that there should be more emphasis on helping the victims grow from and overcome the experience, instead of just trying to prevent it altogether. The author of the article does touch on that, but I think it's generally absent from the minds of most people. "He's getting bullied at school". "Oh - have you called the school?" I'm not saying people should be complacent, I'm just saying that helping the victims is probably more important than other solutions. In my case, I always reacted the wrong way to bullying. I think that if I hadn't reacted the way I did, bullying would've stopped.
  - tptacek 17y ago
    Why should we teach people how to expend effort to overcome problems they shouldn't be confronted with in the first place? If somebody assaults you, you should press charges.

pasbesoin 17y ago

I experienced a strong case of PTSD and low self-esteem as the result of an extended period of quite pernicious and malicious bullying. In my case, the principal bully -- the leader of a pack who all engaged in the bullying -- was the son of a higher level school official; some of the school staff saw it occurring but took no action, I speculate out of fear of retribution. For my part, I was also confused and frustrated by the situation. I had no desire to fight the fellow, and I didn't understand where this aggression was coming from. I also literally didn't know how to fight. No one ever taught me even the basics. The psychological impact was strong enough that I will live with it, to some extent, for the rest of my life. My recommendations to a parent or mentor would include: + Ensure the child is trained in self-defense. I will not allow any child of mine to be without such training. The purpose is not to become aggressive and controlling of others. It is to learn to remain centered and in control of oneself, and hopefully in control of the situation. At least in control of one's reaction to it. + Understand that, per my limited reading, bullying is an effective social strategy. Perhaps that may change as society evolves, but it has and does serve the purpose of promoting the bully and gaining them certain rewards. Not that the bullying is necessarily a conscious, pre-meditated decision with such rewards as the known and expected outcome. However, it is not a purely pathological social aberration. As such, it is something that will appear and that will need to be addressed. Saying it is "wrong" and "unfair" does not help the victim in dealing with the situation. Creating a social structure that aids the victim while mediating the bullying does. However (again), the individual cannot count on others always fostering such a social structure. The individual needs to be able to take care of themself. From that standpoint, they may then also be in a position to help foster a social environment that mediates against bullying. + Modern society seems to me to have created a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" situation. Many parents' daily lives are so separated from those of their children. Kids spend 8, 10 hours away from their parents in social environments that are strongly weighted towards their peer group, with limited participation by teachers, coaches and such as supervising adults. An entire subculture develops largely independent of broader society. Kids can end up very vulnerable within this. And the culture's message and influence is often to not communicate problems to adults. This reinforces the isolation of the victim.

kirse 17y ago

ixnu 17y ago

My son could have been the subject of the article. In 4th grade, he was constantly harassed by a single bully on the bus and in class. Unsurprisingly, all the cliches held: the bully had been in fights with most of the boys on the bus; the school was completely unresponsive to requests for intervention; and the parents of the bully didn't care. For the first time, I forced my son into an activity - martial arts. After a few months, it gave my son the confidence to stand his ground against his tormentor and fight back. Again, unsurprisingly, my son served his first, and the bully his fifth, suspension for violating the "zero tolerance" for throwing fists in school. It was a great life lesson about fairness. He has not had a problem since. Most kids, esp boys, will be bullied at some time, but I shuddered at the thought of my son being the constant target every year.

run4yourlives 17y ago
He has not had a problem since. Key phrase in your comment.

bobochan 17y ago

I have pretty awful memories of bullying, fights, etc. from growing up and the tyranny of the schoolyard pack. I had visions of those scenarios when my own kids started public school but I’ve been very impressed with how the school has made creating a good environment a top priority. A couple of things that really impressed me: 1. At the first meeting the principal said that he wanted to know if a kid was having trouble fitting in, making friends. Creating a good environment where kids enjoyed coming to school was obviously a priority at the top of the organization. 2. In addition to all of the classic recess games like kickball and four square, the school put out some chess sets and got toys for the sandbox so that kids had alternatives. There was a playground rule, “can’t say can’t play” that instilled the notion that games were open to everyone. 3. Counselors entered the classrooms early to talk about things like conflict resolution at a level that the kids could understand. This approach seems light years ahead of what I remember as a kid. In short, I agree that schools can be very effective at eliminating bullying if it is a priority.