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"As so many studies have demonstrated, success in math and the hard sciences, far from being a matter of gender, is almost entirely dependent on culture — a cul

by tapatio 13y ago

"As so many studies have demonstrated, success in math and the hard sciences, far from being a matter of gender, is almost entirely dependent on culture — a culture that teaches girls math isn’t cool and no one will date them if they excel in physics; a culture in which professors rarely encourage their female students to continue on for advanced degrees; a culture in which success in graduate school is a matter of isolation, competition and ridiculously long hours in the lab; a culture in which female scientists are hired less frequently than men, earn less money and are allotted fewer resources." RANT_START This person is delusional. Women are encouraged everywhere to be bold, be strong, be independent, go to college, blah, blah, blah. Who here has heard anyone tell a woman math isn't cool and that no one would date them if they excelled in physics? This is unbelievable bullshit. /RANT_END

melindajb 13y ago
Just because you haven't seen it or heard it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You can't derail a discussion of facts with one statistical data point.
acjohnson55 13y ago
It's called "lip service". It's quite possible for people to assert one thing but in actuality be part of a system that systematically drives contrary to that assertion. You know, kind of like how our founders held those truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and then codified slavery in the next breath. Just because we say women should do X doesn't mean we've actually created an environment that nurtures that outcome.
- tapatio 13y ago
  Sorry, I don't buy that. I pushed a lot of young women into STEM. I've told them many times that it would be a great field for them to get into. 99% of them ARE NOT INTERESTED. They don't care about how exciting it is or how much money they'll be making. Kind of similar in vain to the women who pick "hot" dudes to marry even though they are losers/deadbeats and later complain about said dudes.
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
The word where you made a mistake was "everywhere". It has started to really bug me how people continually lump multiple coherent but conflicting cultural blocs into one abstract whole such as "the USA" and then act confused that their results from surveying "the USA" are blatantly incoherent, inconclusive, and contradictory. If you are white middle-class and live on one of the two coasts, then women are encouraged to be bold, strong, and independent. If you live in the South or Midwest, older ideas of gender roles are much stronger. If you are an ethnic minority, your own culture probably has its own gender norms under which you operate (and this actually goes for men, too), or which at least compete for your dedication with the mainstream norms. Also, being a CS graduate student engaged to a field-biologist graduate student, the following statement is VERY true: success in graduate school is a matter of isolation, competition and ridiculously long hours in the lab, at least for everyone whose scut-work can't be automated with a Python script. And that's for a white middle-class girl who was encouraged to be strong, bold, independent and educated, and actually made it to grad-school in the first place. Science careers right now have a whole lot of problems for everyone who's not a white/Asian male workaholic of comfortably middle-class background.

by tapatio 13y ago

melindajb 13y ago

Just because you haven't seen it or heard it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You can't derail a discussion of facts with one statistical data point.

acjohnson55 13y ago

It's called "lip service". It's quite possible for people to assert one thing but in actuality be part of a system that systematically drives contrary to that assertion. You know, kind of like how our founders held those truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and then codified slavery in the next breath. Just because we say women should do X doesn't mean we've actually created an environment that nurtures that outcome.

tapatio 13y ago
Sorry, I don't buy that. I pushed a lot of young women into STEM. I've told them many times that it would be a great field for them to get into. 99% of them ARE NOT INTERESTED. They don't care about how exciting it is or how much money they'll be making. Kind of similar in vain to the women who pick "hot" dudes to marry even though they are losers/deadbeats and later complain about said dudes.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago

The word where you made a mistake was "everywhere". It has started to really bug me how people continually lump multiple coherent but conflicting cultural blocs into one abstract whole such as "the USA" and then act confused that their results from surveying "the USA" are blatantly incoherent, inconclusive, and contradictory. If you are white middle-class and live on one of the two coasts, then women are encouraged to be bold, strong, and independent. If you live in the South or Midwest, older ideas of gender roles are much stronger. If you are an ethnic minority, your own culture probably has its own gender norms under which you operate (and this actually goes for men, too), or which at least compete for your dedication with the mainstream norms. Also, being a CS graduate student engaged to a field-biologist graduate student, the following statement is VERY true: success in graduate school is a matter of isolation, competition and ridiculously long hours in the lab, at least for everyone whose scut-work can't be automated with a Python script. And that's for a white middle-class girl who was encouraged to be strong, bold, independent and educated, and actually made it to grad-school in the first place. Science careers right now have a whole lot of problems for everyone who's not a white/Asian male workaholic of comfortably middle-class background.