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I have several friend who have left New York and moved to France, mostly because they find the lifestyle so relaxed. The French work less than citizens of the U

I have several friend who have left New York and moved to France, mostly because they find the lifestyle so relaxed. The French work less than citizens of the USA, and yet they manage to remain a highly affluent society: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin... Consider these OECD stats on hours worked: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS Average hours worked: 1,479 hours worked in France in 2012, versus 1,790 in the USA. Over 300 hours, which is more than 7 weeks of full time work, which the French avoid. That's over 7 weeks of vacation that the French enjoy, while the people of the USA are working. The French accept a smaller per capita income in exchange for a great deal of leisure. My friends tell me that France is especially pleasant as a nation to raise children in, as the relaxed lifestyle makes it easier to achieve something like a balance between family and work. In the USA politicians, and movies, tend to adopt a strong rhetoric about being pro-family, but having the leisure to spend time with one's kids is, from what I'm told, easier to achieve in France. France manages its economy in a manner that is heavy handed, when compared to the style that's been adopted in most of the English speaking countries. The advantages of this heavy handed management should be carefully considered: an affluent yet relaxed lifestyle.

skwirl 13y ago
I really don't see the relevance of your comment. All of what you are saying may be true, but what does it have to do with allowing Amazon to offer whatever discounts they want? In what way does this law promote an "affluent yet relaxed lifestyle?" Wouldn't being able to afford more books because they are cheaper on Amazon make me effectively more affluent? Wouldn't the free delivery make me more relaxed?
- pekk 13y ago
  I believe I understand the argument: if the French system has advantages, why should the English-speaking world dictate to France how it should manage its own economy?
  - patrickmay 13y ago
    If the Amazon system has advantages to the individual French citizens, why should the French government dictate how they may spend their money?
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      because the State pays for long terms problems, always?
    - LBarret 13y ago
      Because competition is good in theory but, in practice, many kinds of competition have side effects. Many big companies (Walmart comes to mind) have the capacity to distort the market they're in, change the rule of the market itself. Those external effects that goes beyond "simple" competition may be considered unfair. For example in France, Carrefour ( the french walmart ) used dumping for a few decades, destroying any competition, then slowly increased its prices. Logically, competition should emerge but Carrefour is so entrenched into the infrastructure of the market that a competitor cannot really survive. This is a simplification (the french market is more an oligopoly than a monopoly) but the overall scheme is true. Amazon may or may not have one of these effects. I don't (yet) know or more precisely I don't have enough info to have an opinion.
    - rhizome 13y ago
      Are you arguing against the existence of economic and commerce policies?
    - meepmorp 13y ago
      The French government isn't dictating how it's citizens spend their money. It's dictating how Amazon can sell things to its customers in France.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  I have a very good relevant citation (that ironically I can't copy/paste because it's a kindle book): "You find it at Disneyland, where people flock to stroll up and down a Main Street just like the ones they abandoned wholesale in the 1950s for shopping malls. It happens at restored colonial villages like Williamsburg, Virginia, or Mystic, Connecticut, where visitors pay good money to savour the sort of tranquil village atmosphere that they long ago fled for the happy sprawl of suburbs. You find it at Disneyland, where people flock to stroll up and down a Main Street just like the ones they abandoned wholesale in the 1950s for shopping malls. It happens at restored colonial villages like Williamsburg, Virginia, or Mystic, Connecticut, where visitors pay good money to savour the sort of tranquil village atmosphere that they long ago fled for the happy sprawl of suburbs." Bill Bryson, Notes from a big country. In France we are trying to manage those shops and this heritage. I don't say that we succeed (because now those shops are mostly franchises form mains brands, banks, assurances ans real estates, who price out independent shops), but at least we try something. We have a big problem: we know what we don't want but we have to invent what we want and the route there.
- dionidium 13y ago
  Wouldn't being able to afford more books because they are cheaper on Amazon make me effectively more affluent? I think the argument is that cheaper books might make you more affluent in the sense that you'll have more money, while at the same time promoting a competitive work culture in which it's not possible to use that money to buy time off. In the U.S. I can't trade my money for more vacation. My job is all or nothing. If what I value is time off then what good is money if I can't use it to purchase time off?
  - jordanthoms 13y ago
    Sure you can buy time off in the U.S, you just need to work that out with your employer rather than the Government determining the right amount of time off for everyone.
    - dionidium 13y ago
      You're right that I am free to do this in that it is not illegal, but you're pretty out of touch with most jobs in the U.S. if you think that means I actually can do this.
yodsanklai 13y ago
I think this is correct, and it applies to several other european countries. It would be interesting to hear the point of view of people that worked for the same company both in France and the US. In my opinion, one problem in France is that many (well-paid) jobs are in Paris where housing is getting increasingly expensive. Besides, the layout of the city is such that commuting can be a pain and maybe unavoidable. I think New York is much better from that point of view. I'm curious, is it possible to negotiate 10 weeks vacations in an american company?
- nerfhammer 13y ago
  > I'm curious, is it possible to negotiate 10 weeks vacations in an american company? You cannot do that for any kind of normal job, no. Maybe you could negotiate 3 weeks at most. Also a 45 hour work week is now accepted as normal.
  - brok3nmachine 13y ago
    I just negotiated 4 weeks. Wasn't too difficult, you just have to ask. The funny thing is... I'm likely to pass on the job opportunity, while I stay with my French girlfriend in Paris, building and testing product ideas for a few months =)
    - nerfhammer 13y ago
      If 3 weeks is normal at the company you're applying for then you might be able to get 4
- jdjb 13y ago
  Seriously 10 weeks? We get 10 days here (no joke)..
  - laxatives 13y ago
    Yep, Amazon SDE I's start at 2 weeks vacation + 6 days personal time + (6 days sick, in Seattle only)
__float 13y ago
Are they already rich? It's rather difficult to get a visa and a long term residency permit in France as an American if you're not already an EU citizen or have sufficient finances that you don't need to work. I, unfortunately, do not fit into any of these categories, as much as I would love to move to France. I'm here now, but only for a year :(
- Signez 13y ago
  Please note that it can be as difficult for French people to move to the USA (sometimes, it's even worse, thanks to your TSA guys). It's sad Schengen Area[1] does not cross oceans... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
derleth 13y ago
Yes, France, where you can live the good life as long as you're a white, European Francophone. Immigrants (especially dark-skinned Muslims) need not apply.
- nolite 13y ago
  I'm a black American living there... I'll tell you, you don't see anywhere near racism you see in the US
  - derleth 13y ago
    When France lifts the ban on the hijab, we can talk about how non-racist Europe is. Also, France really needs to stop deporting Romani people. Frankly, you're amazingly privileged being black in France compared to being an Arab or a Romani.
GlobalFrog 13y ago
The relaxed lifestyle is part of a greater picture I think. But first, have a look at the website setup by Jaime Clarke, a US writer who has written a book due to be published in 2014. http://pleasedontbuymybookonamazon.com/ http://pleasedontbuymybookonamazon.com/ The name of the site says it all and he explains his reasons. The french bill has the same goal actually as what is said by this US writer: to allow a more diverse books, authors, bookstores and publishers ecosystem. The previous french fixed price Lang's law had the same goal again: to protect independent bookstores, as they can't offer the same volume price cuts as Amazon could do. Those bookstores do not offer the same service as Amazon either, so it has been decided to favor the quality of the book ecosystem instead of the final book price only. Therefore, books, authors, publishers have a possibility to exist, even if they are not in the top 10 selling list. This is not a law against Amazon, because Amazon is actually a great bookstore in its own way, but the goal is to have the choice, even if it has a cost. There's a US saying that God helps those who help themselves: here, the french are just doing that, because that's what the way of life they want, where the country culture uses tools (legal, economic) to establish and develop, and not where economy defines what the culture should be, even if it has a price and leads to the heavier handed management you mention compared to English speaking countries. (edit: typo)

skwirl 13y ago

I really don't see the relevance of your comment. All of what you are saying may be true, but what does it have to do with allowing Amazon to offer whatever discounts they want? In what way does this law promote an "affluent yet relaxed lifestyle?" Wouldn't being able to afford more books because they are cheaper on Amazon make me effectively more affluent? Wouldn't the free delivery make me more relaxed?

pekk 13y ago
I believe I understand the argument: if the French system has advantages, why should the English-speaking world dictate to France how it should manage its own economy?
- patrickmay 13y ago
  If the Amazon system has advantages to the individual French citizens, why should the French government dictate how they may spend their money?
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    because the State pays for long terms problems, always?
  - LBarret 13y ago
    Because competition is good in theory but, in practice, many kinds of competition have side effects. Many big companies (Walmart comes to mind) have the capacity to distort the market they're in, change the rule of the market itself. Those external effects that goes beyond "simple" competition may be considered unfair. For example in France, Carrefour ( the french walmart ) used dumping for a few decades, destroying any competition, then slowly increased its prices. Logically, competition should emerge but Carrefour is so entrenched into the infrastructure of the market that a competitor cannot really survive. This is a simplification (the french market is more an oligopoly than a monopoly) but the overall scheme is true. Amazon may or may not have one of these effects. I don't (yet) know or more precisely I don't have enough info to have an opinion.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    Are you arguing against the existence of economic and commerce policies?
  - meepmorp 13y ago
    The French government isn't dictating how it's citizens spend their money. It's dictating how Amazon can sell things to its customers in France.
nraynaud 13y ago
I have a very good relevant citation (that ironically I can't copy/paste because it's a kindle book): "You find it at Disneyland, where people flock to stroll up and down a Main Street just like the ones they abandoned wholesale in the 1950s for shopping malls. It happens at restored colonial villages like Williamsburg, Virginia, or Mystic, Connecticut, where visitors pay good money to savour the sort of tranquil village atmosphere that they long ago fled for the happy sprawl of suburbs. You find it at Disneyland, where people flock to stroll up and down a Main Street just like the ones they abandoned wholesale in the 1950s for shopping malls. It happens at restored colonial villages like Williamsburg, Virginia, or Mystic, Connecticut, where visitors pay good money to savour the sort of tranquil village atmosphere that they long ago fled for the happy sprawl of suburbs." Bill Bryson, Notes from a big country. In France we are trying to manage those shops and this heritage. I don't say that we succeed (because now those shops are mostly franchises form mains brands, banks, assurances ans real estates, who price out independent shops), but at least we try something. We have a big problem: we know what we don't want but we have to invent what we want and the route there.
dionidium 13y ago
Wouldn't being able to afford more books because they are cheaper on Amazon make me effectively more affluent? I think the argument is that cheaper books might make you more affluent in the sense that you'll have more money, while at the same time promoting a competitive work culture in which it's not possible to use that money to buy time off. In the U.S. I can't trade my money for more vacation. My job is all or nothing. If what I value is time off then what good is money if I can't use it to purchase time off?
- jordanthoms 13y ago
  Sure you can buy time off in the U.S, you just need to work that out with your employer rather than the Government determining the right amount of time off for everyone.
  - dionidium 13y ago
    You're right that I am free to do this in that it is not illegal, but you're pretty out of touch with most jobs in the U.S. if you think that means I actually can do this.

yodsanklai 13y ago

I think this is correct, and it applies to several other european countries. It would be interesting to hear the point of view of people that worked for the same company both in France and the US. In my opinion, one problem in France is that many (well-paid) jobs are in Paris where housing is getting increasingly expensive. Besides, the layout of the city is such that commuting can be a pain and maybe unavoidable. I think New York is much better from that point of view. I'm curious, is it possible to negotiate 10 weeks vacations in an american company?

nerfhammer 13y ago
> I'm curious, is it possible to negotiate 10 weeks vacations in an american company? You cannot do that for any kind of normal job, no. Maybe you could negotiate 3 weeks at most. Also a 45 hour work week is now accepted as normal.
- brok3nmachine 13y ago
  I just negotiated 4 weeks. Wasn't too difficult, you just have to ask. The funny thing is... I'm likely to pass on the job opportunity, while I stay with my French girlfriend in Paris, building and testing product ideas for a few months =)
  - nerfhammer 13y ago
    If 3 weeks is normal at the company you're applying for then you might be able to get 4
jdjb 13y ago
Seriously 10 weeks? We get 10 days here (no joke)..
- laxatives 13y ago
  Yep, Amazon SDE I's start at 2 weeks vacation + 6 days personal time + (6 days sick, in Seattle only)

__float 13y ago

Are they already rich? It's rather difficult to get a visa and a long term residency permit in France as an American if you're not already an EU citizen or have sufficient finances that you don't need to work. I, unfortunately, do not fit into any of these categories, as much as I would love to move to France. I'm here now, but only for a year :(

Signez 13y ago
Please note that it can be as difficult for French people to move to the USA (sometimes, it's even worse, thanks to your TSA guys). It's sad Schengen Area[1] does not cross oceans... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

derleth 13y ago

Yes, France, where you can live the good life as long as you're a white, European Francophone. Immigrants (especially dark-skinned Muslims) need not apply.

nolite 13y ago
I'm a black American living there... I'll tell you, you don't see anywhere near racism you see in the US
- derleth 13y ago
  When France lifts the ban on the hijab, we can talk about how non-racist Europe is. Also, France really needs to stop deporting Romani people. Frankly, you're amazingly privileged being black in France compared to being an Arab or a Romani.

GlobalFrog 13y ago

The relaxed lifestyle is part of a greater picture I think. But first, have a look at the website setup by Jaime Clarke, a US writer who has written a book due to be published in 2014. http://pleasedontbuymybookonamazon.com/ http://pleasedontbuymybookonamazon.com/ The name of the site says it all and he explains his reasons. The french bill has the same goal actually as what is said by this US writer: to allow a more diverse books, authors, bookstores and publishers ecosystem. The previous french fixed price Lang's law had the same goal again: to protect independent bookstores, as they can't offer the same volume price cuts as Amazon could do. Those bookstores do not offer the same service as Amazon either, so it has been decided to favor the quality of the book ecosystem instead of the final book price only. Therefore, books, authors, publishers have a possibility to exist, even if they are not in the top 10 selling list. This is not a law against Amazon, because Amazon is actually a great bookstore in its own way, but the goal is to have the choice, even if it has a cost. There's a US saying that God helps those who help themselves: here, the french are just doing that, because that's what the way of life they want, where the country culture uses tools (legal, economic) to establish and develop, and not where economy defines what the culture should be, even if it has a price and leads to the heavier handed management you mention compared to English speaking countries. (edit: typo)