5 ms·

I'm curious. did you read the parent article? or do you just post this in reaction to all articles on women in science? What is your response to the original a

I'm curious. did you read the parent article? or do you just post this in reaction to all articles on women in science? What is your response to the original article?

jseliger 13y ago
Yes. Especially this section: But he said he never encouraged anyone to go on in math. “It’s a very hard life,” he told me. “You need to enjoy it. There’s a lot of pressure being a mathematician. The life, the culture, it’s very hard.” When I told Meg Urry that Howe and several other of my professors said they don’t encourage anyone to go on in physics or math because it’s such a hard life, she blew raspberries. “Oh, come on,” she said. “They’re their own bosses. They’re well paid. They love what they do. Why not encourage other people to go on in what you love?” which reminds me of Greenspun. The more interesting question, which he raises, is that given the hours, job prospects, and pay, especially relative to the alternatives, why does anyone want to get a PhD in the sciences? That being said, the NYT's discussion on how other cultures view women in science was most interesting to me.
- melindajb 13y ago
  you've cherry picked one point out of the entire article, the one that matches your incoming perception.
  - jseliger 13y ago
    the one that matches your incoming perception. I never said that Greenspun's "perception" is mine, or that I agree with it.
geebee 13y ago
I'm not jslieger, but I did read the parent article. The nytimes essay does mention briefly the claim that women may be "happier" in "people" fields like medicine, but it presents this more in terms of the intrinsic rewards of the field. I'm a PhD dropout myself, and I am a little bewildered that so many articles can lament the shortage of US Citizens or women in academic science research roles without at least considering the growing body of research that confirms that science is a risky and relatively poorly paid career path. If you'd like something less caustic than the greenspun article, try out the RAND study that concludes that the american aversion to science careers is rational and market based (just google "RAND scientist shortage"). As I mentioned in a previous comment, what I said above is in now way intended to suggest that there is no problem here. I can claim sour grapes, and I can advise others that those grapes are sour, but that doesn't justify discrimination. I do see a problem for women in science. But those grapes really are pretty sour. It makes no sense to discuss the shortage of group X in science without acknowledging this. It's not the only thing to be discussed, and I'd agree it is not the only problem. But to leave it out is a glaring omission.
- melindajb 13y ago
  I agree with your point, insomuch as encouraging more people regardless of gender/orientation/race to take up STEM careers is good for the world.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  Increasingly, it's like discussing a shortage of nuns versus an abundance of monks. The fundamental recruiting problem is that monastic lifestyles are not fulfilling or desirable for the overwhelming majority of the population. Hell, I really like CS research, I'm a grad-student, but I'm always looking over my shoulder asking if I really want to be on an academic career path, or what the hell else to do with myself.
  - scott_s 13y ago
    Make an academic webpage! Mention all of your interests, past and current work! Put the URL in your HN profile! That exclamation points are because I care. I just spent ten minutes googling around to find your work. Computer science is nice in that researchers can get jobs in industry, and not just academia. But you have to be discoverable first.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Actually, thanks for the pointer, although at this point I don't have any approved publications (that is, publications that have actually made it in somewhere). I'm a rising second-year MSc student, so I've had one paper rejected repeatedly (which I keep revising, because why not), one paper just got submitted last week, and one paper is currently under construction. Can you recommend a tool for building academic webpages? The last time I did web design was making a shitty Pokemon fanpage in the 1990s, so I'm kinda out of date on what to actually do.
      - scott_s 13y ago
        But you do have an undergrad thesis. And it's still worth saying what you work on. I'm afraid I'm not aware of any tools for creating academic webpages, but you don't really need one. An academic webpage is really just an online CV. You should say what you interests are, talk about the projects you've worked on (and are working on), papers published (including thesis). Oh, and, of course, how to reach you. A single page should suffice. For my current one, I use WordPress because I want to have a blog, too. You can look at the remnants of my old academic page for structure: http://people.cs.vt.edu/~scschnei/ http://people.cs.vt.edu/~scschnei/ I used to have a h1 for About Me (where I listed interests), publications and projects. How good it looks is secondary. It's just important to get that information up there, easy for people to find. You're actually approaching the time in grad school when industry internships are ideal: you'll be done with classes in a year or two, you've done a research paper or two, but you have a few more years before finishing your dissertation. By the way, having even publications under submission by the second year of doing course work is great progress. Rejections happen. Where did you submit, by the way?

I'm curious. did you read the parent article? or do you just post this in reaction to all articles on women in science? What is your response to the original article?

jseliger 13y ago

Yes. Especially this section: But he said he never encouraged anyone to go on in math. “It’s a very hard life,” he told me. “You need to enjoy it. There’s a lot of pressure being a mathematician. The life, the culture, it’s very hard.” When I told Meg Urry that Howe and several other of my professors said they don’t encourage anyone to go on in physics or math because it’s such a hard life, she blew raspberries. “Oh, come on,” she said. “They’re their own bosses. They’re well paid. They love what they do. Why not encourage other people to go on in what you love?” which reminds me of Greenspun. The more interesting question, which he raises, is that given the hours, job prospects, and pay, especially relative to the alternatives, why does anyone want to get a PhD in the sciences? That being said, the NYT's discussion on how other cultures view women in science was most interesting to me.

melindajb 13y ago
you've cherry picked one point out of the entire article, the one that matches your incoming perception.
- jseliger 13y ago
  the one that matches your incoming perception. I never said that Greenspun's "perception" is mine, or that I agree with it.

geebee 13y ago

I'm not jslieger, but I did read the parent article. The nytimes essay does mention briefly the claim that women may be "happier" in "people" fields like medicine, but it presents this more in terms of the intrinsic rewards of the field. I'm a PhD dropout myself, and I am a little bewildered that so many articles can lament the shortage of US Citizens or women in academic science research roles without at least considering the growing body of research that confirms that science is a risky and relatively poorly paid career path. If you'd like something less caustic than the greenspun article, try out the RAND study that concludes that the american aversion to science careers is rational and market based (just google "RAND scientist shortage"). As I mentioned in a previous comment, what I said above is in now way intended to suggest that there is no problem here. I can claim sour grapes, and I can advise others that those grapes are sour, but that doesn't justify discrimination. I do see a problem for women in science. But those grapes really are pretty sour. It makes no sense to discuss the shortage of group X in science without acknowledging this. It's not the only thing to be discussed, and I'd agree it is not the only problem. But to leave it out is a glaring omission.

melindajb 13y ago
I agree with your point, insomuch as encouraging more people regardless of gender/orientation/race to take up STEM careers is good for the world.
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Increasingly, it's like discussing a shortage of nuns versus an abundance of monks. The fundamental recruiting problem is that monastic lifestyles are not fulfilling or desirable for the overwhelming majority of the population. Hell, I really like CS research, I'm a grad-student, but I'm always looking over my shoulder asking if I really want to be on an academic career path, or what the hell else to do with myself.
- scott_s 13y ago
  Make an academic webpage! Mention all of your interests, past and current work! Put the URL in your HN profile! That exclamation points are because I care. I just spent ten minutes googling around to find your work. Computer science is nice in that researchers can get jobs in industry, and not just academia. But you have to be discoverable first.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    Actually, thanks for the pointer, although at this point I don't have any approved publications (that is, publications that have actually made it in somewhere). I'm a rising second-year MSc student, so I've had one paper rejected repeatedly (which I keep revising, because why not), one paper just got submitted last week, and one paper is currently under construction. Can you recommend a tool for building academic webpages? The last time I did web design was making a shitty Pokemon fanpage in the 1990s, so I'm kinda out of date on what to actually do.
    - scott_s 13y ago
      But you do have an undergrad thesis. And it's still worth saying what you work on. I'm afraid I'm not aware of any tools for creating academic webpages, but you don't really need one. An academic webpage is really just an online CV. You should say what you interests are, talk about the projects you've worked on (and are working on), papers published (including thesis). Oh, and, of course, how to reach you. A single page should suffice. For my current one, I use WordPress because I want to have a blog, too. You can look at the remnants of my old academic page for structure: http://people.cs.vt.edu/~scschnei/ http://people.cs.vt.edu/~scschnei/ I used to have a h1 for About Me (where I listed interests), publications and projects. How good it looks is secondary. It's just important to get that information up there, easy for people to find. You're actually approaching the time in grad school when industry internships are ideal: you'll be done with classes in a year or two, you've done a research paper or two, but you have a few more years before finishing your dissertation. By the way, having even publications under submission by the second year of doing course work is great progress. Rejections happen. Where did you submit, by the way?