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"The project certainly hasn’t given me a comprehensive understanding of software development, but it has laid a broad foundation for me to jump off of" No it h

"The project certainly hasn’t given me a comprehensive understanding of software development, but it has laid a broad foundation for me to jump off of" No it has not, and no it has not. Don't get me wrong A+ for the effort... but it is a very small niche oriented effort. Comprehensive? Watch Rich Hickey talks (http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey http://www.infoq.com/author/Rich-Hickey), try reading and exercising data structures (b-tree, rb-tree, bitmaps, and a long etc), try different problems like database reporting and read "Code Complete" AND "The Nature of Code". You are up to a great start, but got a long way to go to call it "Comprehensive" Broad foundation? not really, no. Just today's popular areas of front end development. And today's popular is actually a very small area, common and with a lot of hype, but just a relatively small section of front end development Great project... keep going, there is much to discover!

DanielStraight 13y ago
I don't mean to nitpick, but I think you misread. She specifically said it hasn't given her a comprehensive understanding.
- statusgraph 13y ago
  Haha, not sure that qualifies as a "nit" given that it invalidates their point entirely ... :)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 13y ago
Not it has not, yes it has. Web development is for many intents and purposes now the equivalent of software development. That there are other areas of interest (embedded, systems software, application development and so on) does not detract from the fact that if you want to do software development web development is more than likely your point of entry and it's a field wide enough and deep enough that you could easily lose several careers in it. So for her it is a broad foundation to jump off of, more so than assembly language programming or toying around with clojure.
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  +1 to this, while some folks seem rather dismissive of web site design as "programming" (and I did back in the HTML4 days but these days, its very much a program) here is someone who has looked at this particular aspect and poked into a bunch of different areas. And that is all good. So much better to have 6 months experience building web sites before you say "I'll just make a career in building web sites" :-)
- sharkweek 13y ago
  I hate the argument that you have to dive into some complex language to really "understand" programming -- Some people just like to build stuff; much akin to someone who might just want to change the oil in their car. You would never ask them to build an entire transmission for their first project.
  - ionforce 13y ago
    Sure, you don't "have to" but you most likely do. To understand something implies some grasp of scope and size. And if you're continually working on toy problems, you'll never encounter problems of the appropriate scope or issues of scale. So that's kind of what people mean when they say you need to work with something complex. To understand a complex system is to know which parts are important and which aren't and at which levels of examination.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  I post one answer to all the posts
pseudometa 13y ago
Remember you told me to tell you when you were acting 'rudely and insensitively'? Remember that? You're doing it right now.
carter770 13y ago
What the heck are you talking about? C'mon man...
mseebach 13y ago
That's pretty elitist. You seem to confuse "coder" with "computer scientist" or "software engineer". As the ecosystem of toolsets, frameworks and libraries mature, the number of opportunities for well-informed "commoners" with the right motivation to make computers do what they want them to increases violently. Lemma 1: Simple CRUD-style web-apps and scripts can be very useful. Lemma 2: Before-mentioned tools can be build to a perfectly serviceable standard without a comprehensive understanding of computer science. These two combined suggests that the author can indeed be a perfectly productive and effective creator of computer programs. I see no reason "coder" isn't a perfectly good title for such a person.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > That's pretty elitist. I think its accurate, not "elitist". > You seem to confuse "coder" with "computer scientist" or "software engineer". The claim was that the experience provided a broad foundation with regard to "software development". That is a broad field. Lots of experience in CRUD-style web apps isn't a broad base for "software development" generally, its a narrow (but potentially deep within that narrow domain) base. That's not to say its not a useful base, but its not broad. Also note that the response in GP to the claim of a broad base -- while pointing out that it was not broad -- also wasn't judgemental in way which justifies the claim of elitism. It explicitly recognized the project as great and encouraged continuing from there. > These two combined suggests that the author can indeed be a perfectly productive and effective creator of computer programs. I see no reason "coder" isn't a perfectly good title for such a person. Nothing in GP was contrary to these points, so you seem to be arguing against things no one said.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  I post one answer to all the posts
tmimicus 13y ago
I don't usually comment... ...but man, you are a jerk. She's becoming a coder, not a computer scientist. And calling her work 'niche', then linking to a guy raving about Datomic, something that is even MORE niche? Man... I'm wasting my time calling you out.
- ars_technician 13y ago
  It can be hard to see if you spend a lot of time in web dev, but he is 100% correct. You confused about what computer scientists are. Think about this, some of the best computer scientists in the world would have difficulty passing fizzbuzz, let alone engineer large projects. Computer science != software engineering What she did is a niche, but linking to another niche is the whole point, not a counter-argument to what he said. The idea is to expand your view of programming, not spit on things that aren't in your field.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  I post one answer to all the posts
furyofantares 13y ago
It might not be a "broad foundation" but I think it is a "broad foundation to jump off of". The foundation I jumped off of was being able to edit numbers in GORILLAS.BAS to change the size of the explosions.
huu 13y ago
She said that it -has not- given her a comprehensive understanding of software development, not that it has. Also agree with the other comments, this is pretty elitist. There's just no reason to comment and say, "well I'm not impressed".
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  Except that I said I am. I post one answer to all the posts
jorgeleo 13y ago
I am going to answer here so I address everyone from one single place (some sort of DRY for answers) Web development has not become the equivalent of software development. There are multiple other areas, Web development is currently a good entry point for self tough people, but not the only either. I know a lot of people that start with VBA macros in Excel. Let me put it this way: I learned how to change the brake pads in my car. Then I decided that I was going to change the brake pads in 100 different car brands and models, so I did. Can I call my self a car mechanic? Nope, not even a brake specialist because I am forgetting a lot of other pieces and mechanism. But I can make a career out of it, fast brake maintenance. Now I see someone that has the stamina, the admirable dedication to actually go through it, so I see someone that has the ability to go much further than the average guy. Tease her, give her some pointers and directions, if she likes challenges, challenge her to go more out there. It is easy to sit back and clap at an accomplishment, and is no small accomplishment in this case. But she is thirsty for more, challenge her to more!!!... unless you don't know where that more is because the belief that web development is all there is to it Some areas of web design is programming... JavaScript, server side, and a long etc certainly are. HTML is document painting. It is important, it requires some serious skills, skills that for that matter I don't have, but HTML is not programming because there are no conditionals, no loops. The basics building blocks in programming are those. If this hurts, I am honestly sorry, but you have 2 options, either react in anger (which is a secondary feeling, and you need to see what feeling is the primary), or research what else is there and maybe you will learn a thing or 2. HTML plus JavaScript it is programming, HTML and some CSS can be stretched to call it programming Elitist? Confusing with "Computer Scientist"? I was just giving some pointers into other areas of software development. I did not mention Discrete mathematics, set theory, compiler construction, semantic analysis, etc, etc, etc. Those are areas for a Computer Scientist, and putting her against that can become discouraging instead of challenging, but then again, another computer scientist would have known that, wouldn't he? If all that you see about Rich is Datatomic and Clojure, then you are missing a lot. Simple vs. Easy is more what I am talking about, or functions as the thing that make data time travel, aha! that can change the way you think about software development. That is programming BBQ, not HTML salad. If you don't know what I am talking about... Google meet my friend here, friend meet Google. If there is something where she is above is that she took a challenge and meet it What the original article did is nothing short of amazing... so much accomplished, so much stamina, so much potential. She claim that she wants to jump off... well, I mention a few pools where she can dive in And finally... what is the difference between a jerk and tough love? can you recognize when you see it? There is really no absolute answer, but if you write it and read it back, you have a chance to see the color of the glasses that are in front of your eyes

DanielStraight 13y ago

I don't mean to nitpick, but I think you misread. She specifically said it hasn't given her a comprehensive understanding.

statusgraph 13y ago
Haha, not sure that qualifies as a "nit" given that it invalidates their point entirely ... :)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 13y ago

Not it has not, yes it has. Web development is for many intents and purposes now the equivalent of software development. That there are other areas of interest (embedded, systems software, application development and so on) does not detract from the fact that if you want to do software development web development is more than likely your point of entry and it's a field wide enough and deep enough that you could easily lose several careers in it. So for her it is a broad foundation to jump off of, more so than assembly language programming or toying around with clojure.

ChuckMcM 13y ago
+1 to this, while some folks seem rather dismissive of web site design as "programming" (and I did back in the HTML4 days but these days, its very much a program) here is someone who has looked at this particular aspect and poked into a bunch of different areas. And that is all good. So much better to have 6 months experience building web sites before you say "I'll just make a career in building web sites" :-)
sharkweek 13y ago
I hate the argument that you have to dive into some complex language to really "understand" programming -- Some people just like to build stuff; much akin to someone who might just want to change the oil in their car. You would never ask them to build an entire transmission for their first project.
- ionforce 13y ago
  Sure, you don't "have to" but you most likely do. To understand something implies some grasp of scope and size. And if you're continually working on toy problems, you'll never encounter problems of the appropriate scope or issues of scale. So that's kind of what people mean when they say you need to work with something complex. To understand a complex system is to know which parts are important and which aren't and at which levels of examination.
jorgeleo 13y ago
I post one answer to all the posts

pseudometa 13y ago

Remember you told me to tell you when you were acting 'rudely and insensitively'? Remember that? You're doing it right now.

carter770 13y ago

What the heck are you talking about? C'mon man...

mseebach 13y ago

That's pretty elitist. You seem to confuse "coder" with "computer scientist" or "software engineer". As the ecosystem of toolsets, frameworks and libraries mature, the number of opportunities for well-informed "commoners" with the right motivation to make computers do what they want them to increases violently. Lemma 1: Simple CRUD-style web-apps and scripts can be very useful. Lemma 2: Before-mentioned tools can be build to a perfectly serviceable standard without a comprehensive understanding of computer science. These two combined suggests that the author can indeed be a perfectly productive and effective creator of computer programs. I see no reason "coder" isn't a perfectly good title for such a person.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> That's pretty elitist. I think its accurate, not "elitist". > You seem to confuse "coder" with "computer scientist" or "software engineer". The claim was that the experience provided a broad foundation with regard to "software development". That is a broad field. Lots of experience in CRUD-style web apps isn't a broad base for "software development" generally, its a narrow (but potentially deep within that narrow domain) base. That's not to say its not a useful base, but its not broad. Also note that the response in GP to the claim of a broad base -- while pointing out that it was not broad -- also wasn't judgemental in way which justifies the claim of elitism. It explicitly recognized the project as great and encouraged continuing from there. > These two combined suggests that the author can indeed be a perfectly productive and effective creator of computer programs. I see no reason "coder" isn't a perfectly good title for such a person. Nothing in GP was contrary to these points, so you seem to be arguing against things no one said.
jorgeleo 13y ago
I post one answer to all the posts

tmimicus 13y ago

I don't usually comment... ...but man, you are a jerk. She's becoming a coder, not a computer scientist. And calling her work 'niche', then linking to a guy raving about Datomic, something that is even MORE niche? Man... I'm wasting my time calling you out.

ars_technician 13y ago
It can be hard to see if you spend a lot of time in web dev, but he is 100% correct. You confused about what computer scientists are. Think about this, some of the best computer scientists in the world would have difficulty passing fizzbuzz, let alone engineer large projects. Computer science != software engineering What she did is a niche, but linking to another niche is the whole point, not a counter-argument to what he said. The idea is to expand your view of programming, not spit on things that aren't in your field.
jorgeleo 13y ago
I post one answer to all the posts

furyofantares 13y ago

It might not be a "broad foundation" but I think it is a "broad foundation to jump off of". The foundation I jumped off of was being able to edit numbers in GORILLAS.BAS to change the size of the explosions.

huu 13y ago

She said that it -has not- given her a comprehensive understanding of software development, not that it has. Also agree with the other comments, this is pretty elitist. There's just no reason to comment and say, "well I'm not impressed".

jorgeleo 13y ago
Except that I said I am. I post one answer to all the posts

jorgeleo 13y ago

I am going to answer here so I address everyone from one single place (some sort of DRY for answers) Web development has not become the equivalent of software development. There are multiple other areas, Web development is currently a good entry point for self tough people, but not the only either. I know a lot of people that start with VBA macros in Excel. Let me put it this way: I learned how to change the brake pads in my car. Then I decided that I was going to change the brake pads in 100 different car brands and models, so I did. Can I call my self a car mechanic? Nope, not even a brake specialist because I am forgetting a lot of other pieces and mechanism. But I can make a career out of it, fast brake maintenance. Now I see someone that has the stamina, the admirable dedication to actually go through it, so I see someone that has the ability to go much further than the average guy. Tease her, give her some pointers and directions, if she likes challenges, challenge her to go more out there. It is easy to sit back and clap at an accomplishment, and is no small accomplishment in this case. But she is thirsty for more, challenge her to more!!!... unless you don't know where that more is because the belief that web development is all there is to it Some areas of web design is programming... JavaScript, server side, and a long etc certainly are. HTML is document painting. It is important, it requires some serious skills, skills that for that matter I don't have, but HTML is not programming because there are no conditionals, no loops. The basics building blocks in programming are those. If this hurts, I am honestly sorry, but you have 2 options, either react in anger (which is a secondary feeling, and you need to see what feeling is the primary), or research what else is there and maybe you will learn a thing or 2. HTML plus JavaScript it is programming, HTML and some CSS can be stretched to call it programming Elitist? Confusing with "Computer Scientist"? I was just giving some pointers into other areas of software development. I did not mention Discrete mathematics, set theory, compiler construction, semantic analysis, etc, etc, etc. Those are areas for a Computer Scientist, and putting her against that can become discouraging instead of challenging, but then again, another computer scientist would have known that, wouldn't he? If all that you see about Rich is Datatomic and Clojure, then you are missing a lot. Simple vs. Easy is more what I am talking about, or functions as the thing that make data time travel, aha! that can change the way you think about software development. That is programming BBQ, not HTML salad. If you don't know what I am talking about... Google meet my friend here, friend meet Google. If there is something where she is above is that she took a challenge and meet it What the original article did is nothing short of amazing... so much accomplished, so much stamina, so much potential. She claim that she wants to jump off... well, I mention a few pools where she can dive in And finally... what is the difference between a jerk and tough love? can you recognize when you see it? There is really no absolute answer, but if you write it and read it back, you have a chance to see the color of the glasses that are in front of your eyes