4 ms·

Strategically Ladar's fight seems like a good thing for all of us, but in general I am bothered by the focus on "the American people", and the idea of political

by Joeboy 13y ago

Strategically Ladar's fight seems like a good thing for all of us, but in general I am bothered by the focus on "the American people", and the idea of political fixes based on the US constitution. I hope that HN type people are thinking strategically about the big picture and not seeking to promote the rights of a minority, potentially at the expense of the rest of us. I can't really tell though.

mixmastamyk 13y ago
You're right... however I can certainly imagine every country of means jumping on the surveillance bandwagon if they haven't already. At least the US has a constitution that forbids this. It's a good time to take a stand. It won't be solved globally, but piece by piece.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dingaling 13y ago
  The question that the wording of the appeal raises in my mind is: if the warrant first presented to Lavabit related to a non-US citizen who was using the service, would Mr Levison have followed the same course of action?
  - mixmastamyk 13y ago
    I think so, how could you sell a security service with a backdoor only for foreigners? Doesn't make sense from a technical point of view. Also, it doesn't seem that he had a problem with warrants, just opening it for everyone at once.
Joeri 13y ago
As a European I do indeed find this troubling. I know that "everyone does this", and "this is how it's always been", but morally speaking whether a person is a citizen of one country or another has no impact on whether it is justified to spy on them. As a collective society humanity has to grow up and leave this stuff behind. Fundamentally these problems trace back to the nation state, which itself is an inherently discriminatory instrument. It assigns special privileges to people based on where they were born. If we as a species believe that everyone should have access to equal rights and equal opportunities, then there can be no international borders arbitarily cutting up the landscape of rights and opportunities. The nation state was a tool that was useful in humanity's adolescence, but we have to leave it behind if we ever want to grow up. Not that any of that is easy, but just because something is hard doesn't mean it isn't necessary.
znowi 13y ago
Lavabit is operating under the US law and Ladar's fight is with the US government. The focus on American people and US constitution is a single viable path to constructively battle the unlawful demands. If it is ruled that Lavabit can not be extorted for private data of its users, it's a win for any user out there. On a side note, I feel saddened that this event does not attract more attention. More so, you happen to see people scrutinize Lavabit and pick on various details of this case. But think about it. Lavabit is, to my knowledge, the only company that took an open stand for its users and went so far as to shut down its service to protect users private data. Somehow, it's not exciting enough for many. Instead, the recent news of the "Google Ad Designer" got almost 1k points and spent more than a day on the front page. Same company who sold its users quietly, without a single word. Who could have also taken a stand and even shut down GMail, if they had enough guts and moral integrity. Imagine the social impact of this move. It could have very well turn the tide. Yet, the only action they took is one press release to deny any allegations and one motion to allow for full FISA orders statistics be published. A minor, but very laud public stunt. It seems like the greatest fear of Snowden is coming to live. People forget and move on. Those who fight for our rights become outcasts. Those who exploit them become our heroes.

by Joeboy 13y ago

mixmastamyk 13y ago

You're right... however I can certainly imagine every country of means jumping on the surveillance bandwagon if they haven't already. At least the US has a constitution that forbids this. It's a good time to take a stand. It won't be solved globally, but piece by piece.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dingaling 13y ago
The question that the wording of the appeal raises in my mind is: if the warrant first presented to Lavabit related to a non-US citizen who was using the service, would Mr Levison have followed the same course of action?
- mixmastamyk 13y ago
  I think so, how could you sell a security service with a backdoor only for foreigners? Doesn't make sense from a technical point of view. Also, it doesn't seem that he had a problem with warrants, just opening it for everyone at once.

Joeri 13y ago

As a European I do indeed find this troubling. I know that "everyone does this", and "this is how it's always been", but morally speaking whether a person is a citizen of one country or another has no impact on whether it is justified to spy on them. As a collective society humanity has to grow up and leave this stuff behind. Fundamentally these problems trace back to the nation state, which itself is an inherently discriminatory instrument. It assigns special privileges to people based on where they were born. If we as a species believe that everyone should have access to equal rights and equal opportunities, then there can be no international borders arbitarily cutting up the landscape of rights and opportunities. The nation state was a tool that was useful in humanity's adolescence, but we have to leave it behind if we ever want to grow up. Not that any of that is easy, but just because something is hard doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

znowi 13y ago

Lavabit is operating under the US law and Ladar's fight is with the US government. The focus on American people and US constitution is a single viable path to constructively battle the unlawful demands. If it is ruled that Lavabit can not be extorted for private data of its users, it's a win for any user out there. On a side note, I feel saddened that this event does not attract more attention. More so, you happen to see people scrutinize Lavabit and pick on various details of this case. But think about it. Lavabit is, to my knowledge, the only company that took an open stand for its users and went so far as to shut down its service to protect users private data. Somehow, it's not exciting enough for many. Instead, the recent news of the "Google Ad Designer" got almost 1k points and spent more than a day on the front page. Same company who sold its users quietly, without a single word. Who could have also taken a stand and even shut down GMail, if they had enough guts and moral integrity. Imagine the social impact of this move. It could have very well turn the tide. Yet, the only action they took is one press release to deny any allegations and one motion to allow for full FISA orders statistics be published. A minor, but very laud public stunt. It seems like the greatest fear of Snowden is coming to live. People forget and move on. Those who fight for our rights become outcasts. Those who exploit them become our heroes.