10 ms·

This does seem plausible, so I almost don't think this is worth mentioning, but don't forget about "parallel construction". Having the world believe they can't

by dlss 13y ago

This does seem plausible, so I almost don't think this is worth mentioning, but don't forget about "parallel construction". Having the world believe they can't reverse Tor would clearly be more valuable than having the world believe they can. Remember that Tor explicitly doesn't protect against a global passive adversary.

pyre 13y ago
We don't know that any "parallel construction" is at work here. It seems like most of the information stemmed from the discovery of the Silk Road web server, and I haven't seen how they were able to determine that. If this goes to trial, then the FBI will have to say how it got that information (assuming he has a competent defense team).
- mculp 13y ago
  The point of parallel construction is that we don't know that it's at work.
  - pyre 13y ago
    If they used parallel construction, then why didn't they list how they got the information about the location/IP of the Silk Road webserver? I would assume that they would have ParallelConstruction'd a reasonable way for them to have obtained that information, no?
    - vidarh 13y ago
      Why would they show their hand before they need to, and give more opportunities for poking holes in it?
      - pyre 13y ago
        Because they are legally obligated to 'show their hand' when the defendant's legal representative asks for it?
        deathanatos 13y ago
        You appear to be missing the point of parallel construction. The point is that they show a true, but-not-the-whole-truth "hand" (the parallel construction) while obscuring the full truth. That is, you spy on someone, and obtain a bunch of evidence, either illegally or that is fruit of the poisonous tree. From that knowledge, you construct a (fictitious or only partially fictitious, but plausible) story about how you gathered enough evidence to incriminate your victim, without revealing that you came across this evidence illegally. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction. Yes, they are legally obligated to not lie about the true means of how they came to have the evidence. But if nobody can prove you're lying, they can't call you on it.
        kanzure 13y ago
        Gee, parallel construction sounds an awful lot like money laundering except with my bytes. :|
  - frank_boyd 13y ago
    True, and the next Silk Road owner will certainly take that point into account. Obviously, the disappearance of such a site leaves a gaping hole on the Web: Silk Road has proven that the demand/market is there, that people are willing to use the Web to acquire those goods, that they are willing to pay, that the whole transaction works and that this leads to a massive amount of cash. So, make no mistake, the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful, and already building.
    - rolux 13y ago
      The next Silk Road owner will call himself the "CEO" of his operation and won't do an interview with Forbes, but an AMA on Reddit. Strange times. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1fwi48/im_the_ceo_of_an_online_underground_black_market/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1fwi48/im_the_ceo_of_a...
      - frank_boyd 13y ago
        > Q: How do you rate yourself compared to the road? > A: The road has more users, but our service is better (to put it bluntly). > [...] We have automated PGP encryption of messages for the members who refuse to send their messages using PGP. Ouch.
      - rdl 13y ago
        Atlantis is pretty widely known to be either a honeypot or a scam. Black Market Reloaded is the odds-on favorite to be the new Silk Road. Drugs are bad, mm'kay?
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      ...the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful... And almost as certainly: more experienced in the use of serious violence. The next guy won't be hiring hitters without introductions from fellow violent criminals. (Not that undercover cops have never been vouched for in such a manner, but it raises the stakes significantly.) Yay Drug War!
- princess3000 13y ago
  That's the thing though. We know that as of very recently the NSA is helping other alphabet agencies construct cases in parallel. If you knew the guy's name or handle or whatever information the NSA could have given the FBI then coming up with an alternate story of how they ID'd the guy (page 24 onwards in the criminal complaint) would be incredibly easy. The point is that we'll probably never know either way.
- bradleyjg 13y ago
  Few cases make it to trial, especially in the federal system. He's been charged with at least two capital eligible charges. They'll offer to plead down to life in prision (or 100+ years same difference) and he'll take it. We'll never see the government's full case.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
deathhand 13y ago
1984 wasn't supposed to be a manual god damn it! (This is how the main character was caught. He believed in a 'alternative' system. Much like how we like to pretend TOR is untouchable)
- VMG 13y ago
  this has nothing to do with 1984 -- DPR was very sloppy, this is an indication that TOR works. I'm betting a dozen entrepreneurs are looking at this right now thinking "I can do this better" and are designing their systems as this is happening.
  - butler14 13y ago
    exactly what i was thinking, the amount of work involved despite some pretty horrendous slip-ups, implies TOR + basic common sense can be a pretty powerful thing
    - debaserab2 13y ago
      In principle I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's harder than you realize to maintain basic common sense all the time. People do irrational things, all the time. Even the normal ones.
      - XorNot 13y ago
        Also anyone talking about it here on HackerNews is already failing at it.
        makomk 13y ago
        Meh. The FBI and DEA can investigate my Silk Road seller account all they want and they won't find anything interesting.
      - stmartin 13y ago
        He can hide behind his libertarian agenda all he wants, but instinctively he knew what he was doing was wrong at multiple levels, legally and above all, morally. Otherwise he wouldn't be operating on Tor..... or hiding anything.
ig1 13y ago
It's already known that they have attacks against Tor (i.e. Flying Pig)

by dlss 13y ago

pyre 13y ago

We don't know that any "parallel construction" is at work here. It seems like most of the information stemmed from the discovery of the Silk Road web server, and I haven't seen how they were able to determine that. If this goes to trial, then the FBI will have to say how it got that information (assuming he has a competent defense team).

mculp 13y ago
The point of parallel construction is that we don't know that it's at work.
- pyre 13y ago
  If they used parallel construction, then why didn't they list how they got the information about the location/IP of the Silk Road webserver? I would assume that they would have ParallelConstruction'd a reasonable way for them to have obtained that information, no?
  - vidarh 13y ago
    Why would they show their hand before they need to, and give more opportunities for poking holes in it?
    - pyre 13y ago
      Because they are legally obligated to 'show their hand' when the defendant's legal representative asks for it?
      - deathanatos 13y ago
        You appear to be missing the point of parallel construction. The point is that they show a true, but-not-the-whole-truth "hand" (the parallel construction) while obscuring the full truth. That is, you spy on someone, and obtain a bunch of evidence, either illegally or that is fruit of the poisonous tree. From that knowledge, you construct a (fictitious or only partially fictitious, but plausible) story about how you gathered enough evidence to incriminate your victim, without revealing that you came across this evidence illegally. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction. Yes, they are legally obligated to not lie about the true means of how they came to have the evidence. But if nobody can prove you're lying, they can't call you on it.
        kanzure 13y ago
        Gee, parallel construction sounds an awful lot like money laundering except with my bytes. :|
- frank_boyd 13y ago
  True, and the next Silk Road owner will certainly take that point into account. Obviously, the disappearance of such a site leaves a gaping hole on the Web: Silk Road has proven that the demand/market is there, that people are willing to use the Web to acquire those goods, that they are willing to pay, that the whole transaction works and that this leads to a massive amount of cash. So, make no mistake, the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful, and already building.
  - rolux 13y ago
    The next Silk Road owner will call himself the "CEO" of his operation and won't do an interview with Forbes, but an AMA on Reddit. Strange times. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1fwi48/im_the_ceo_of_an_online_underground_black_market/ http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1fwi48/im_the_ceo_of_a...
    - frank_boyd 13y ago
      > Q: How do you rate yourself compared to the road? > A: The road has more users, but our service is better (to put it bluntly). > [...] We have automated PGP encryption of messages for the members who refuse to send their messages using PGP. Ouch.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Atlantis is pretty widely known to be either a honeypot or a scam. Black Market Reloaded is the odds-on favorite to be the new Silk Road. Drugs are bad, mm'kay?
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    ...the next Silk Road creator is certainly out there, probably technically more astute and careful... And almost as certainly: more experienced in the use of serious violence. The next guy won't be hiring hitters without introductions from fellow violent criminals. (Not that undercover cops have never been vouched for in such a manner, but it raises the stakes significantly.) Yay Drug War!
princess3000 13y ago
That's the thing though. We know that as of very recently the NSA is helping other alphabet agencies construct cases in parallel. If you knew the guy's name or handle or whatever information the NSA could have given the FBI then coming up with an alternate story of how they ID'd the guy (page 24 onwards in the criminal complaint) would be incredibly easy. The point is that we'll probably never know either way.
bradleyjg 13y ago
Few cases make it to trial, especially in the federal system. He's been charged with at least two capital eligible charges. They'll offer to plead down to life in prision (or 100+ years same difference) and he'll take it. We'll never see the government's full case.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

deathhand 13y ago

1984 wasn't supposed to be a manual god damn it! (This is how the main character was caught. He believed in a 'alternative' system. Much like how we like to pretend TOR is untouchable)

VMG 13y ago
this has nothing to do with 1984 -- DPR was very sloppy, this is an indication that TOR works. I'm betting a dozen entrepreneurs are looking at this right now thinking "I can do this better" and are designing their systems as this is happening.
- butler14 13y ago
  exactly what i was thinking, the amount of work involved despite some pretty horrendous slip-ups, implies TOR + basic common sense can be a pretty powerful thing
  - debaserab2 13y ago
    In principle I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's harder than you realize to maintain basic common sense all the time. People do irrational things, all the time. Even the normal ones.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      Also anyone talking about it here on HackerNews is already failing at it.
      - makomk 13y ago
        Meh. The FBI and DEA can investigate my Silk Road seller account all they want and they won't find anything interesting.
    - stmartin 13y ago
      He can hide behind his libertarian agenda all he wants, but instinctively he knew what he was doing was wrong at multiple levels, legally and above all, morally. Otherwise he wouldn't be operating on Tor..... or hiding anything.

ig1 13y ago

It's already known that they have attacks against Tor (i.e. Flying Pig)