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Running this kind of service becomes infinitely more difficult if you can't hide your hidden services. Also I wonder how they got a server image without him no

Running this kind of service becomes infinitely more difficult if you can't hide your hidden services. Also I wonder how they got a server image without him noticing since it is typically something you'd need to shut down the machine for. Was the whole thing running off a hosting service? It would be pretty impressive if he physically had servers in multiple countries. Just setting them up without involving other people seems difficult. Edit: He did use hosting services which probably used virtualization so it is easy to clone drives for. The complaint has him buying fake ids (which were confiscated in transit!) in order to rent more servers.

nocman 13y ago
If by "server image" they mean image(s) of the hard disk partition(s) (that's what I suspect they mean) -- easy. If the server is using LVM or some similar technology -- you can take a snapshot while the server is still running, no problem.
- lucaspiller 13y ago
  You can do `cat /dev/sda` on a live server (as root) without any special stuff like LVM or a hypervisor, it just isn't guaranteed to take a clean image, as it isn't a snapshot. In most cases you'd probably just need to run fdisk to tidy it up and get 99% of the data back in one piece.
  - dsl 13y ago
    You can't make any modifications for it to be admissible in court. This includes logging into a live server to take an image, or 'fixing' errors introduced during the copy. Professional forensic investigators have what are called 'write blockers' that prevent all writes when drives are plugged in to be imaged.
    - pyre 13y ago
      It was in another country, and the image was provided by the other country. Not sure about the law/case-law around how that works with respect to chain-of-evidence.
      - dublinben 13y ago
        I think a good defense lawyer should be able to get the server image thrown out. Fat lot that will do in light of everything else though.
    - judk 13y ago
      They can create a hernetic environment to fsck a copy to find what files are on the original, and then copy the target file content from the discovered addresses. Otherwise I could shred say some paper evidence, and the course would reject a taped-up copy that shows my original document. Which they wouldn't, of course.
- fragmede 13y ago
  Even if you don't use a snapshot, and get an inconsistent image, it's not like fsck isn't going to get you most if not all the data anyway. (Yay journaling)
foley 13y ago
The Silk Road has been notoriously unreliable. Constantly "Down for maintenance" and often just unresponsive for hours at a time. Besides the government it has also come under a number of malicious attacks from disgruntled users. I imagine the DPR was logging in via VPN just to get some kind of consistent access to the site, even with I'm sure there were many times where the servers were unresponsive even to him.
lsc 13y ago
>Also I wonder how they got a server image without him noticing since it is typically something you'd need to shut down the machine for. Was the whole thing running off a hosting service? How often does one of your servers crash? I mean, it happens. I estimate maybe once a year/server, on average, assuming a 5 year lifecycle. (well, usually it's more like 'no crashes for the first three years, several crashes a year after' - hardware ages.) Hell, whole racks lose power at times. Doesn't happen all that often, but it happens often enough that if your provider says "We blew breaker X" well, more often than not, it's a honest problem, and not the FBI yanking power to image a drive. Or hell... what if it's a server with a mirrored drive? It'd be easy enough to pull half the mirror (the drive 'failed' right? Hell, you can say you let the salesguy into the co-lo and he bumped the hard drive release catch, or you sent in the new kid to swap a drive and they pulled the wrong one. These things aren't common, but they are way more common than the FBI.) Hell, a drive could have legitimately failed and been sent back to seagate/wd by the provider (assuming he was renting servers) for warranty repair. The FBI could have intercepted the drive (or gotten it from the manufacturer) and run their own analysis. So yeah. I totally believe that the FBI could get a reasonable image without DPR or anyone being the wiser.
- bigiain 13y ago
  "Hell, whole racks lose power at times. Doesn't happen all that often, but it happens often enough that if your provider says "We blew breaker X" well, more often than not, it's a honest problem, and not the FBI yanking power to image a drive." Now you've got me wondering whether the apparent disparity between manufacturers claimed MTBF and what we see in failure rates in the real world, might plausibly be attributed to mysterious government agencies coercing data center owners into unexpected-but-plausible downtime. (four or five nines of power uptime might just mean the FBI/NSA need to batch server imaging and grab a whole bunch in a particular data center at once)
  - lsc 13y ago
    >Now you've got me wondering whether the apparent disparity between manufacturers claimed MTBF and what we see in failure rates in the real world, might plausibly be attributed to mysterious government agencies coercing data center owners into unexpected-but-plausible downtime. (four or five nines of power uptime might just mean the FBI/NSA need to batch server imaging and grab a whole bunch in a particular data center at once) It's far more likely that people are idiots. How many hardware techs do you know who even own an ESD wrist strap? I get actively ridiculed when I pull mine out. Next, the SLAs claimed by datacenters are usually bullshit on multiple levels. First, the penalty is usually "we will refund you for the time you were down, if you ask." - which is fine, but a 5 minute power outage can be brutal to clean up after, while 5 minutes of your monthly bill is hardly worth asking for. I'd be happy to give people a 100% sla on those terms. I mean, obviously, the service isn't going to be up 100%, but the penalties are so low that who cares? Then, well, even if the facility doesn't lose power, there are a hundred different ways a server or a rack can lose power. Hell, even I let a guy into my co-lo who plugged in one of those ancient computers with a manual 110-240v switch. (everything made in the last decade auto-switches.) He plugged it into my 208v power, with the switch on 110, causing the fuses on my PDU to blow (and taking out the whole rack) And power cords. Especially if you don't have dual power supplies, power cords get bumped. The mark of a honest sysadmin is that s/he admits it when they bump the cord[1] So yeah, while it /could/ be the FBI, the vast majority of the time, well, someone fucked up. [1]http://blog.prgmr.com/xenophilia/2013/06/more-downtime-on-javier.html http://blog.prgmr.com/xenophilia/2013/06/more-downtime-on-ja...
cenhyperion 13y ago
That's what I'm wondering. I would have thought someone running an operation like that would control their physical hardware.
- hvidgaard 13y ago
  You have to weight the pros and cons. Hosting yourself, means you have to get a proper location with power, internet connection, ect. You have to get and pay for this anonymously. You do have a greater control over it. If it's colocated, you only have one type of payment to do, and I'm fairly sure it's easier to be anonymous. You have less control over this location, and have to worry about their logging of access and the like.
Nanzikambe 13y ago
Once the host was identified, obtaining an image of the running server is as simple as removing a disk from a RAID array and replacing it with a blank spare.

nocman 13y ago

If by "server image" they mean image(s) of the hard disk partition(s) (that's what I suspect they mean) -- easy. If the server is using LVM or some similar technology -- you can take a snapshot while the server is still running, no problem.

lucaspiller 13y ago
You can do `cat /dev/sda` on a live server (as root) without any special stuff like LVM or a hypervisor, it just isn't guaranteed to take a clean image, as it isn't a snapshot. In most cases you'd probably just need to run fdisk to tidy it up and get 99% of the data back in one piece.
- dsl 13y ago
  You can't make any modifications for it to be admissible in court. This includes logging into a live server to take an image, or 'fixing' errors introduced during the copy. Professional forensic investigators have what are called 'write blockers' that prevent all writes when drives are plugged in to be imaged.
  - pyre 13y ago
    It was in another country, and the image was provided by the other country. Not sure about the law/case-law around how that works with respect to chain-of-evidence.
    - dublinben 13y ago
      I think a good defense lawyer should be able to get the server image thrown out. Fat lot that will do in light of everything else though.
  - judk 13y ago
    They can create a hernetic environment to fsck a copy to find what files are on the original, and then copy the target file content from the discovered addresses. Otherwise I could shred say some paper evidence, and the course would reject a taped-up copy that shows my original document. Which they wouldn't, of course.
fragmede 13y ago
Even if you don't use a snapshot, and get an inconsistent image, it's not like fsck isn't going to get you most if not all the data anyway. (Yay journaling)

foley 13y ago

The Silk Road has been notoriously unreliable. Constantly "Down for maintenance" and often just unresponsive for hours at a time. Besides the government it has also come under a number of malicious attacks from disgruntled users. I imagine the DPR was logging in via VPN just to get some kind of consistent access to the site, even with I'm sure there were many times where the servers were unresponsive even to him.

lsc 13y ago

>Also I wonder how they got a server image without him noticing since it is typically something you'd need to shut down the machine for. Was the whole thing running off a hosting service? How often does one of your servers crash? I mean, it happens. I estimate maybe once a year/server, on average, assuming a 5 year lifecycle. (well, usually it's more like 'no crashes for the first three years, several crashes a year after' - hardware ages.) Hell, whole racks lose power at times. Doesn't happen all that often, but it happens often enough that if your provider says "We blew breaker X" well, more often than not, it's a honest problem, and not the FBI yanking power to image a drive. Or hell... what if it's a server with a mirrored drive? It'd be easy enough to pull half the mirror (the drive 'failed' right? Hell, you can say you let the salesguy into the co-lo and he bumped the hard drive release catch, or you sent in the new kid to swap a drive and they pulled the wrong one. These things aren't common, but they are way more common than the FBI.) Hell, a drive could have legitimately failed and been sent back to seagate/wd by the provider (assuming he was renting servers) for warranty repair. The FBI could have intercepted the drive (or gotten it from the manufacturer) and run their own analysis. So yeah. I totally believe that the FBI could get a reasonable image without DPR or anyone being the wiser.

bigiain 13y ago
"Hell, whole racks lose power at times. Doesn't happen all that often, but it happens often enough that if your provider says "We blew breaker X" well, more often than not, it's a honest problem, and not the FBI yanking power to image a drive." Now you've got me wondering whether the apparent disparity between manufacturers claimed MTBF and what we see in failure rates in the real world, might plausibly be attributed to mysterious government agencies coercing data center owners into unexpected-but-plausible downtime. (four or five nines of power uptime might just mean the FBI/NSA need to batch server imaging and grab a whole bunch in a particular data center at once)
- lsc 13y ago
  >Now you've got me wondering whether the apparent disparity between manufacturers claimed MTBF and what we see in failure rates in the real world, might plausibly be attributed to mysterious government agencies coercing data center owners into unexpected-but-plausible downtime. (four or five nines of power uptime might just mean the FBI/NSA need to batch server imaging and grab a whole bunch in a particular data center at once) It's far more likely that people are idiots. How many hardware techs do you know who even own an ESD wrist strap? I get actively ridiculed when I pull mine out. Next, the SLAs claimed by datacenters are usually bullshit on multiple levels. First, the penalty is usually "we will refund you for the time you were down, if you ask." - which is fine, but a 5 minute power outage can be brutal to clean up after, while 5 minutes of your monthly bill is hardly worth asking for. I'd be happy to give people a 100% sla on those terms. I mean, obviously, the service isn't going to be up 100%, but the penalties are so low that who cares? Then, well, even if the facility doesn't lose power, there are a hundred different ways a server or a rack can lose power. Hell, even I let a guy into my co-lo who plugged in one of those ancient computers with a manual 110-240v switch. (everything made in the last decade auto-switches.) He plugged it into my 208v power, with the switch on 110, causing the fuses on my PDU to blow (and taking out the whole rack) And power cords. Especially if you don't have dual power supplies, power cords get bumped. The mark of a honest sysadmin is that s/he admits it when they bump the cord[1] So yeah, while it /could/ be the FBI, the vast majority of the time, well, someone fucked up. [1]http://blog.prgmr.com/xenophilia/2013/06/more-downtime-on-javier.html http://blog.prgmr.com/xenophilia/2013/06/more-downtime-on-ja...

cenhyperion 13y ago

That's what I'm wondering. I would have thought someone running an operation like that would control their physical hardware.

hvidgaard 13y ago
You have to weight the pros and cons. Hosting yourself, means you have to get a proper location with power, internet connection, ect. You have to get and pay for this anonymously. You do have a greater control over it. If it's colocated, you only have one type of payment to do, and I'm fairly sure it's easier to be anonymous. You have less control over this location, and have to worry about their logging of access and the like.

Nanzikambe 13y ago

Once the host was identified, obtaining an image of the running server is as simple as removing a disk from a RAID array and replacing it with a blank spare.