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It is going to be an issue for everybody else because when things dont work as they should, and they wont because now there is two backends to support for the t

by antocv 13y ago

It is going to be an issue for everybody else because when things dont work as they should, and they wont because now there is two backends to support for the toolkits, it will be Wayland here and Mir there, completely useless for the user, but what will you say in the error message "Something stopped working, sorry?". Just like alsa, oss, jack, esd and pulseaudio. I never wanted to touch pulseaudio with a ten-foot pole, it is kept away from my systems in every form. Yet Ive seen apps complain about pulseaudio and have it in their settings by default, then not working and telling me to fix my pulseaudio installation. There will be apps developed by Ubuntu for Mir that will just cause problems when others try to run them on Wayland.

vidarh 13y ago
Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had, and I suspect that's the experience most users have. Pretty much everything just works, and a lot of that I believe is squarely because they are perfectly happy to break convention if that is what it takes for them to get where they want to be. > and they wont because now there is two backends to support for the toolkits Both Qt and GTK have far more than just two backends already, yet they keep working. Two more is hardly going to be vastly more difficult to get right. E.g. Gtk has Windows and OS X versions, as well as a HTML5 backend, and a DirectFB backend. And presumably the X backend will stay around too. > but what will you say in the error message "Something stopped working, sorry?". What does it say today if the X server fails? > I never wanted to touch pulseaudio with a ten-foot pole, it is kept away from my systems in every form. Yet Ive seen apps complain about pulseaudio and have it in their settings by default, then not working and telling me to fix my pulseaudio installation. So either don't use those apps, fix them, or install Pulse Audio anyway. It's not app developers obligation to make things keep working on every bizarre configuration around. If you want a conservative distribution, perhaps you will be happier with Debian. > There will be apps developed by Ubuntu for Mir that will just cause problems when others try to run them on Wayland. If people write their apps to run straight on Mir, sure. Just as if people write their code to target any library that isn't universally available. But just like exceedingly few people target X directly without a toolkit or wrapper, I think it'll be exceedingly unlikely that lots of people will clamour to write code targeting Mir directly. Much less likely than depending on pulse-audio functionality, for example.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Fuxy 13y ago
  > Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had What else have you tried? I find the experience quite lacking and I've been using Ubuntu for over 4 years as my main OS. > It's not app developers obligation to make things keep working on every bizarre configuration around. Well it may not be their obligation but if they want their apps use the must support all common configurations. Adding 2 more just gives more headaches to developers.
- w0utert 13y ago
  >> Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had, and I suspect that's the experience most users have In all the time I used Ubuntu with the exact same conviction, it went through 3 different desktop environments, every time breaking things left and right, or removing features I depended on for my workflow. Like the guy you are replying to this includes forcing PulseAudio on me and breaking audio in various ways, and deprecating the Gnome 2 desktop in favor of Unity (which doesn't run in my VM because of a lack of 3D acceleration) first, and then deprecating the only viable alternative that did work in a VM (Unity2D) one release later. Eventually I just gave up on Ubuntu and switched to Mint, which isn't perfect in itself, but at least it doesn't break my workflow on every release.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Interestingly, 9 times out of 10, when somebody says that they have had a problem with PusleAudio, they later tell me that they were using Ubuntu while it happened. Did I say "interestingly"? I'm sorry, I think I meant "suspiciously, but not longer surprisingly". Ubuntu ships an unstable product packaged inexpertly, sells it to users as "the certified bees knees", then heaps all blame onto other projects.
  - Flimm 13y ago
    I'm not sure why you find that anecdotal number suspicious. If most PulseAudio users are using Ubuntu, of course most PulseAudio problems are going to be discovered on Ubuntu.

by antocv 13y ago

vidarh 13y ago

Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had, and I suspect that's the experience most users have. Pretty much everything just works, and a lot of that I believe is squarely because they are perfectly happy to break convention if that is what it takes for them to get where they want to be. > and they wont because now there is two backends to support for the toolkits Both Qt and GTK have far more than just two backends already, yet they keep working. Two more is hardly going to be vastly more difficult to get right. E.g. Gtk has Windows and OS X versions, as well as a HTML5 backend, and a DirectFB backend. And presumably the X backend will stay around too. > but what will you say in the error message "Something stopped working, sorry?". What does it say today if the X server fails? > I never wanted to touch pulseaudio with a ten-foot pole, it is kept away from my systems in every form. Yet Ive seen apps complain about pulseaudio and have it in their settings by default, then not working and telling me to fix my pulseaudio installation. So either don't use those apps, fix them, or install Pulse Audio anyway. It's not app developers obligation to make things keep working on every bizarre configuration around. If you want a conservative distribution, perhaps you will be happier with Debian. > There will be apps developed by Ubuntu for Mir that will just cause problems when others try to run them on Wayland. If people write their apps to run straight on Mir, sure. Just as if people write their code to target any library that isn't universally available. But just like exceedingly few people target X directly without a toolkit or wrapper, I think it'll be exceedingly unlikely that lots of people will clamour to write code targeting Mir directly. Much less likely than depending on pulse-audio functionality, for example.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Fuxy 13y ago
> Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had What else have you tried? I find the experience quite lacking and I've been using Ubuntu for over 4 years as my main OS. > It's not app developers obligation to make things keep working on every bizarre configuration around. Well it may not be their obligation but if they want their apps use the must support all common configurations. Adding 2 more just gives more headaches to developers.
w0utert 13y ago
>> Yet despite all of your issues, Ubuntu is by now by far the smoothest desktop experience I've had, and I suspect that's the experience most users have In all the time I used Ubuntu with the exact same conviction, it went through 3 different desktop environments, every time breaking things left and right, or removing features I depended on for my workflow. Like the guy you are replying to this includes forcing PulseAudio on me and breaking audio in various ways, and deprecating the Gnome 2 desktop in favor of Unity (which doesn't run in my VM because of a lack of 3D acceleration) first, and then deprecating the only viable alternative that did work in a VM (Unity2D) one release later. Eventually I just gave up on Ubuntu and switched to Mint, which isn't perfect in itself, but at least it doesn't break my workflow on every release.
jlgreco 13y ago
Interestingly, 9 times out of 10, when somebody says that they have had a problem with PusleAudio, they later tell me that they were using Ubuntu while it happened. Did I say "interestingly"? I'm sorry, I think I meant "suspiciously, but not longer surprisingly". Ubuntu ships an unstable product packaged inexpertly, sells it to users as "the certified bees knees", then heaps all blame onto other projects.
- Flimm 13y ago
  I'm not sure why you find that anecdotal number suspicious. If most PulseAudio users are using Ubuntu, of course most PulseAudio problems are going to be discovered on Ubuntu.