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>I'm not going to turn to robbery if I lose my job. I honestly don't buy this, but even if you would personally starve to death rather than steal to obtain foo

>I'm not going to turn to robbery if I lose my job. I honestly don't buy this, but even if you would personally starve to death rather than steal to obtain food, the vast majority of people would not. Crime rates increase as legitimate ways to make money dry up; the statistical trend is real and the implications for human nature cannot be ignored. Wishful thinking about human nature and just teaching people not to be bad will get you nowhere. It is a politicians job to see things at an aggregate level and address public health issues at that level. Discussing the lack of jobs and legitimate avenues for making money is exactly the appropriate response that a politician should have. If people need a moral kick-in-the-pants, perhaps their pastor should provide it.

jskonhovd 13y ago
Crime shouldn't be justified due to poverty.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  And explanation for X is not a justification of X, it is simply pointing out a cause.
twoodfin 13y ago
I honestly don't buy this, but even if you would personally starve to death rather than steal to obtain food, the vast majority of people would not. Nobody in Oakland, or the U.S. generally, needs to steal to obtain food. This is not Dickensian England. Government social programs and private charities may not be perfect, but they are more than enough to be sure anyone capable exercising a minimum amount of effort and self-control will not be in danger of starving to death. Obviously there are continuing problems with the mentally ill, but those are not particularly relevant unless you think they're disproportionally committing crimes.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  Of course, my point was that he is not different from those in Oakland perpetrating these crimes in kind, but only a matter of degrees; there is a point where he too would commit unethical acts if he became desperate enough. And that is the ultimate point here, we are all capable of committing crimes if we became desperate enough. This is a property of humanity, not just of a group of morally depraved oaklanders. Thus it makes sense to address the issue in a systemic fashion, i.e. jobs and opportunity.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    And that is the ultimate point here, we are all capable of committing crimes if we became desperate enough. We are? I can imagine committing a violent crime if I were not in control of my faculties, or if I were being blackmailed in some horrible (and manifestly illegal) way. But there are many, many poor people who do not commit crime when sound of mind and body, and it's rather disrespectful to the important notions of free will and human dignity to assume that they just haven't been ground down to their limit yet.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      Well I'm not a big believer of the layman's usage of "free will" to begin with (in fact I believe it to be self-contradictory), so I'm sure we could have a long discussion on the subject. But from a different perspective, I always find it laughable when people like to claim that they or us in modern times are (or should be) so far above certain types of behavior, violent or otherwise. Human history is a trail of tragedy perpetrated by regular people no different from you and me. To think that you are somehow different than all those that came before is pure egoism.
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        Human history is a trail of tragedy perpetrated by regular people no different from you and me. To think that you are somehow different than all those that came before is pure egoism. This is sophistry. Of course some people are different from others. Only a tiny minority of people living in the U.S. will commit violent crimes over the course of their lives, despite a much larger minority living in poverty or facing other hardships. Those who commit violent crimes are different by choice. If you don't think those of sound mind are responsible for their own actions, it's hard to see how you can think of democratic society as anything but a doomed experiment.

jskonhovd 13y ago

Crime shouldn't be justified due to poverty.

hackinthebochs 13y ago
And explanation for X is not a justification of X, it is simply pointing out a cause.

twoodfin 13y ago

I honestly don't buy this, but even if you would personally starve to death rather than steal to obtain food, the vast majority of people would not. Nobody in Oakland, or the U.S. generally, needs to steal to obtain food. This is not Dickensian England. Government social programs and private charities may not be perfect, but they are more than enough to be sure anyone capable exercising a minimum amount of effort and self-control will not be in danger of starving to death. Obviously there are continuing problems with the mentally ill, but those are not particularly relevant unless you think they're disproportionally committing crimes.

hackinthebochs 13y ago
Of course, my point was that he is not different from those in Oakland perpetrating these crimes in kind, but only a matter of degrees; there is a point where he too would commit unethical acts if he became desperate enough. And that is the ultimate point here, we are all capable of committing crimes if we became desperate enough. This is a property of humanity, not just of a group of morally depraved oaklanders. Thus it makes sense to address the issue in a systemic fashion, i.e. jobs and opportunity.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  And that is the ultimate point here, we are all capable of committing crimes if we became desperate enough. We are? I can imagine committing a violent crime if I were not in control of my faculties, or if I were being blackmailed in some horrible (and manifestly illegal) way. But there are many, many poor people who do not commit crime when sound of mind and body, and it's rather disrespectful to the important notions of free will and human dignity to assume that they just haven't been ground down to their limit yet.
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    Well I'm not a big believer of the layman's usage of "free will" to begin with (in fact I believe it to be self-contradictory), so I'm sure we could have a long discussion on the subject. But from a different perspective, I always find it laughable when people like to claim that they or us in modern times are (or should be) so far above certain types of behavior, violent or otherwise. Human history is a trail of tragedy perpetrated by regular people no different from you and me. To think that you are somehow different than all those that came before is pure egoism.
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Human history is a trail of tragedy perpetrated by regular people no different from you and me. To think that you are somehow different than all those that came before is pure egoism. This is sophistry. Of course some people are different from others. Only a tiny minority of people living in the U.S. will commit violent crimes over the course of their lives, despite a much larger minority living in poverty or facing other hardships. Those who commit violent crimes are different by choice. If you don't think those of sound mind are responsible for their own actions, it's hard to see how you can think of democratic society as anything but a doomed experiment.