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Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me. Pizza, beer and ping-pong in the job description suggests

by ronaldx 13y ago

Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me. Pizza, beer and ping-pong in the job description suggests it's a social requirement to be involved in those things: it's almost literally being described as part of the job. It indicates that there is likely a poor attitude towards work-life balance and employee health and is probably a marker for hidden prejudices disguised as "culture fit". Frankly, I value those rewards highly negatively. As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not? Swearing at a bug and swearing at a potential employee are contextually different. I have no problem working in an environment where swearing at a bug is acceptable; swearing at an employee or colleague should be no more acceptable than swearing at a valued client (for clarity: not acceptable under normal circumstances). The appropriateness of swearing is highly contextual - putting it in a job ad likely shows that you don't know where sensible boundaries are.

lobotryas 13y ago
>Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me. Every job or job posting will never be everything to everyone. If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter. >As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Sure, if you're Google or just have a lot of money. "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs rather than a hallowed tech lifestyle.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  > If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter. This makes filtering jobs quite easy, true. But it shouldn't - this situation makes me unhappy about the state of the industry. > "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs Yes, I identify that these are cheap items being passed-off as employee benefits: my evaluation of the company is affected by that as well. "Common" Denominators, not so much.
  - lobotryas 13y ago
    In your opinion, what should the "state of the industry" be like?
- deleted 13y ago
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- ronaldx 13y ago
  > I think it's pretty sexist to suggest that no women programmers are into pizza, beer, or ping-pong. Um... That wasn't what I was trying to suggest, and if anything, I would suggest the opposite: if programming jobs require programmers to be into pizza, beer and ping-pong, women programmers are more likely to be into those things. People who are not into those things are less likely to choose programming as a career. There is cultural exclusion here that is not only along lines of gender: it's just that the male-female ratio in programming is very, very clear evidence of it.
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- twoodfin 13y ago
  I don't think he was implying any of those items were "superior" to their alternatives as much as pointing out that the cultural familiarity of the list allows it to slip by without us questioning what a desire for pizza and ping pong have to do with the suitability of a candidate to a job. That aside, as a beer aficionado, I think that the "craft" has at least another generation or two to go before it's at wine-like levels of sophistication. It may never get there. The fundamental "problem" is that it's too easy to make world-class beer. Wine is heavily dependent on the whims of climate and the particularities of soil, while executing a great beer recipe just requires skill, time, and more or less readily available ingredients. EDIT: Yes, there are exceptions. Wild-fermented lambics require the right yeast-populated environment, but even that is something you can "grow" anywhere with enough time. They're not making more coastal hillsides in France.
- anon1385 13y ago
  What? That wasn't what he suggested at all…
jsavimbi 13y ago
Spot on. Most [serious] companies will have catered breakfasts/lunches/snacks on a regular basis. They don't advertise it as part of the "culture" nor do they offer it as a form of compensation. They just do it becaise it's convenient to the workflow and creates a positive feeling in the workplace if done right. Fruit deliveries, lunch once a week, snack cabinet, pizza night, ice cream social, etc. all boring yet part of what's considered normal behavior. If you work at a company that doesn't then you should ask yourself if the bosses actually know what they're doing or care to provide the basics or their employees. Alcohol in the work place is a serious problem, either existing or waiting to happen. Just ask your favobrite insurance company. Also, if some clown in an executive position brags about the size of their weekly binge-drinking bar tabs as a reason to work for them, walk away. They're trying to ply you with drugs in the same way a pimp does a prostitute.
crazygringo 13y ago
> As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not? Thank you. That's one of the best examples of a point I've seen in a while... excellently put! It gets precisely at how, by offering certain "perks" that easily seem innocuous or just fun, it's actually promoting a very specific workplace culture, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual professional job, which so easily works against diversity, and possibly turns away far more talented workers than it attracts.
- mathattack 13y ago
  It may tell you that the job is anti-diversity, but at least it's honest. If there's a weekly whiskey (or tequila or chocolate brownie) hour at the company, wouldn't you want to know in advance?
  - lobotryas 13y ago
    Did you just imply that "chocolate brownie hour" is "anti-diversity"? Could you expand on your general point a bit more? My take away seems to be: "never offer your employees any perks or optional activities because somene will feel offended/left out/forced to participate against their will".
    - mathattack 13y ago
      Not about diversity, just an example of culture. I wanted to pick a counter-example that didn't include pizza or alcohol, and "chocolate brownie" came to mind first because I had one in front of me. (Unfortunately not company sponsored. It's long gone now!) The general idea is it's good to know the perks that are offered. Somebody will always feel left out. (People whose diets preclude brownies, for example.) It's good to know what the culture is going in, so that we can self select and only choose to work for places in alignment with our beliefs. Perhaps more useful signals of culture would be hours worked, amount of autonomy versus teamwork, and types of customer interaction.
sanderjd 13y ago
Free sushi, wine, and Zumba sounds awesome! But it's a really good demonstration of how it makes it sound like a very different company employing very different people.
ebiester 13y ago
"consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba." Where do I sign up? I'll even take 2 buck chuck. ;) That could be an amazing place to work. I'm kind of sad that's not a real job ad now.
newppc 13y ago
If the tech job offered sushi, wine, and Zumba, I'm all in - that probably means I'm one of a few programmers at some type of company with lots of women, which makes for a refreshing and interesting work environment.
- theorique 13y ago
  If a job offers yoga, that's even better. Yoga implies (usually) a 75 / 25 male to female ratio. And yoga pants. Yes, yoga pants.

by ronaldx 13y ago

lobotryas 13y ago

>Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not-apply conditions for me. Every job or job posting will never be everything to everyone. If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter. >As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Sure, if you're Google or just have a lot of money. "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs rather than a hallowed tech lifestyle.

ronaldx 13y ago
> If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter. This makes filtering jobs quite easy, true. But it shouldn't - this situation makes me unhappy about the state of the industry. > "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs Yes, I identify that these are cheap items being passed-off as employee benefits: my evaluation of the company is affected by that as well. "Common" Denominators, not so much.
- lobotryas 13y ago
  In your opinion, what should the "state of the industry" be like?
deleted 13y ago
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deleted 13y ago

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ronaldx 13y ago
> I think it's pretty sexist to suggest that no women programmers are into pizza, beer, or ping-pong. Um... That wasn't what I was trying to suggest, and if anything, I would suggest the opposite: if programming jobs require programmers to be into pizza, beer and ping-pong, women programmers are more likely to be into those things. People who are not into those things are less likely to choose programming as a career. There is cultural exclusion here that is not only along lines of gender: it's just that the male-female ratio in programming is very, very clear evidence of it.

deleted 13y ago

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twoodfin 13y ago
I don't think he was implying any of those items were "superior" to their alternatives as much as pointing out that the cultural familiarity of the list allows it to slip by without us questioning what a desire for pizza and ping pong have to do with the suitability of a candidate to a job. That aside, as a beer aficionado, I think that the "craft" has at least another generation or two to go before it's at wine-like levels of sophistication. It may never get there. The fundamental "problem" is that it's too easy to make world-class beer. Wine is heavily dependent on the whims of climate and the particularities of soil, while executing a great beer recipe just requires skill, time, and more or less readily available ingredients. EDIT: Yes, there are exceptions. Wild-fermented lambics require the right yeast-populated environment, but even that is something you can "grow" anywhere with enough time. They're not making more coastal hillsides in France.
anon1385 13y ago
What? That wasn't what he suggested at all…

jsavimbi 13y ago

Spot on. Most [serious] companies will have catered breakfasts/lunches/snacks on a regular basis. They don't advertise it as part of the "culture" nor do they offer it as a form of compensation. They just do it becaise it's convenient to the workflow and creates a positive feeling in the workplace if done right. Fruit deliveries, lunch once a week, snack cabinet, pizza night, ice cream social, etc. all boring yet part of what's considered normal behavior. If you work at a company that doesn't then you should ask yourself if the bosses actually know what they're doing or care to provide the basics or their employees. Alcohol in the work place is a serious problem, either existing or waiting to happen. Just ask your favobrite insurance company. Also, if some clown in an executive position brags about the size of their weekly binge-drinking bar tabs as a reason to work for them, walk away. They're trying to ply you with drugs in the same way a pimp does a prostitute.

crazygringo 13y ago

> As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not? Thank you. That's one of the best examples of a point I've seen in a while... excellently put! It gets precisely at how, by offering certain "perks" that easily seem innocuous or just fun, it's actually promoting a very specific workplace culture, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual professional job, which so easily works against diversity, and possibly turns away far more talented workers than it attracts.

mathattack 13y ago
It may tell you that the job is anti-diversity, but at least it's honest. If there's a weekly whiskey (or tequila or chocolate brownie) hour at the company, wouldn't you want to know in advance?
- lobotryas 13y ago
  Did you just imply that "chocolate brownie hour" is "anti-diversity"? Could you expand on your general point a bit more? My take away seems to be: "never offer your employees any perks or optional activities because somene will feel offended/left out/forced to participate against their will".
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Not about diversity, just an example of culture. I wanted to pick a counter-example that didn't include pizza or alcohol, and "chocolate brownie" came to mind first because I had one in front of me. (Unfortunately not company sponsored. It's long gone now!) The general idea is it's good to know the perks that are offered. Somebody will always feel left out. (People whose diets preclude brownies, for example.) It's good to know what the culture is going in, so that we can self select and only choose to work for places in alignment with our beliefs. Perhaps more useful signals of culture would be hours worked, amount of autonomy versus teamwork, and types of customer interaction.

sanderjd 13y ago

Free sushi, wine, and Zumba sounds awesome! But it's a really good demonstration of how it makes it sound like a very different company employing very different people.

ebiester 13y ago

"consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba." Where do I sign up? I'll even take 2 buck chuck. ;) That could be an amazing place to work. I'm kind of sad that's not a real job ad now.

newppc 13y ago

If the tech job offered sushi, wine, and Zumba, I'm all in - that probably means I'm one of a few programmers at some type of company with lots of women, which makes for a refreshing and interesting work environment.

theorique 13y ago
If a job offers yoga, that's even better. Yoga implies (usually) a 75 / 25 male to female ratio. And yoga pants. Yes, yoga pants.