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And when computer science academics try to do programming, they often get it wrong. Having been academically sucessful during my undergraduate degree, but sidet

by buyx 13y ago

And when computer science academics try to do programming, they often get it wrong. Having been academically sucessful during my undergraduate degree, but sidetracked by my career, I was recently looking at a prospectus for a one year post-graduate (honours) degree from a South African university, and, although their coursework seemed appealing, they have a strictly waterfall-based year project. They go to some lengths to justify their position (presumably they have been challenged on this) by claiming it conforms to a British Computer Society model. I doubt many programmers who have done real-world programming give a rat's ass about methodology prescriptions by the British Computer Society, but those who pursue the degree grit their teeth and bear it, or are put off, and don't bother pursuing it. I fall into the latter group. If many more prospective students with real-world experience share my opinion, all it does is isolate the academics and prevents them from learning more about the real world.

kabouseng 13y ago
University coursework always lags industry best practices, so this isn't really surprising. Furthermore, the South African industry requiring degree'd software engineers almost all still follow a strictly waterfall process, being mostly the defence industry following DO-178 processes. Other firms not in defence also mostly have fixed features / cost contracts they are developing for, which fits the waterfall model of development.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- buyx 13y ago
  Furthermore, the South African industry requiring degree'd software engineers almost all still follow a strictly waterfall process, being mostly the defence industry following DO-178 processes Interesting, I know one programmer who worked in the SA defence industry, and was later retrenched, but that's just anecdotal. Do you have a source for this assertion? Other firms not in defence also mostly have fixed features / cost contracts they are developing for, which fits the waterfall model of development. I have to disagree with this, but since the "waterfall"-versus-agile debate has been done to death before, I won't rehash it here. University coursework always lags industry best practices, so this isn't really surprising. This is an honours degree from a brick-and-mortar university, so the curriculum lag argument is a bit weak. I understand that an undergraduate degree being taught to hundreds of students may take some time to be updated, but at post-graduate level, I would expect a bit less dogmatism. Come to think of it, during my undergraduate studies, about 10 years ago we learned about agile methodologies and iterative development.
  - kabouseng 13y ago
    No I have no source, only my own experiences. I have a couple of friends / colleagues / class mates working in various sectors of the industry. Saab, Denel, Armscor represents my comments on the DO-178 work. Saab actually implements scrum, but from my understanding it is more like scrum bolted on to waterfall :D. I have also been in a couple of interviews lately, specifically at ATE / Paragon, C-Track, Grintek and RapidM. All basically have the same Waterfall methodology. Now I was careful to state that it is the case with businesses requiring degreed engineers. Web development shops in SA probably follows a more agile approach, the only one I know of, Entelect for instance is fully agile as far as I can tell, but I don't really know anybody there. It could also be that only me and my network is experiencing this, it is all anecdotal, but then again, I doubt there is some kind of study that can give you a better picture. I am based in Centurion in case you were wondering. Also its not about if Waterfall / Agile is best, its because the contracts are generally setup with fixed deliverables, which suits waterfall best. Lastly even with honours degrees the curriculum is set, and the professors aren't too keen on changing it too often.
walshemj 13y ago
Waterfall is a perfectly valid method of developing software I woudl hope that a degree program woudl cover a number of models of software development. Back in the day I got a recognition award for two projects in a row first was a classic waterfall project (a management system for the Uk's SMDS network) the next was full on RAD/DSDM (early web development).
- eliasmacpherson 13y ago
  Can you elaborate what you mean by waterfall? Did you have a prototype? I am confused because to my knowledge it has only ever been described as a way not to do things. "The first formal description of the waterfall model is often cited as a 1970 article by Winston W. Royce,[4][5] although Royce did not use the term "waterfall" in this article. Royce presented this model as an example of a flawed, non-working model." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#Model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#Model
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Actually it was BT's own ISO 9000 based system we spent about 7/8 months on the design/spec stage then 2 of us plus an oracle contractor did the development in a 12 week sprint - so it was a sort of hybrid approach. SMDS/ATM was fairly new at the time our system was designed to manage the kit in the exchanges so that you didn't have some one accidentally shutdown the entire janet university network.

by buyx 13y ago

kabouseng 13y ago

University coursework always lags industry best practices, so this isn't really surprising. Furthermore, the South African industry requiring degree'd software engineers almost all still follow a strictly waterfall process, being mostly the defence industry following DO-178 processes. Other firms not in defence also mostly have fixed features / cost contracts they are developing for, which fits the waterfall model of development.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
buyx 13y ago
Furthermore, the South African industry requiring degree'd software engineers almost all still follow a strictly waterfall process, being mostly the defence industry following DO-178 processes Interesting, I know one programmer who worked in the SA defence industry, and was later retrenched, but that's just anecdotal. Do you have a source for this assertion? Other firms not in defence also mostly have fixed features / cost contracts they are developing for, which fits the waterfall model of development. I have to disagree with this, but since the "waterfall"-versus-agile debate has been done to death before, I won't rehash it here. University coursework always lags industry best practices, so this isn't really surprising. This is an honours degree from a brick-and-mortar university, so the curriculum lag argument is a bit weak. I understand that an undergraduate degree being taught to hundreds of students may take some time to be updated, but at post-graduate level, I would expect a bit less dogmatism. Come to think of it, during my undergraduate studies, about 10 years ago we learned about agile methodologies and iterative development.
- kabouseng 13y ago
  No I have no source, only my own experiences. I have a couple of friends / colleagues / class mates working in various sectors of the industry. Saab, Denel, Armscor represents my comments on the DO-178 work. Saab actually implements scrum, but from my understanding it is more like scrum bolted on to waterfall :D. I have also been in a couple of interviews lately, specifically at ATE / Paragon, C-Track, Grintek and RapidM. All basically have the same Waterfall methodology. Now I was careful to state that it is the case with businesses requiring degreed engineers. Web development shops in SA probably follows a more agile approach, the only one I know of, Entelect for instance is fully agile as far as I can tell, but I don't really know anybody there. It could also be that only me and my network is experiencing this, it is all anecdotal, but then again, I doubt there is some kind of study that can give you a better picture. I am based in Centurion in case you were wondering. Also its not about if Waterfall / Agile is best, its because the contracts are generally setup with fixed deliverables, which suits waterfall best. Lastly even with honours degrees the curriculum is set, and the professors aren't too keen on changing it too often.

walshemj 13y ago

Waterfall is a perfectly valid method of developing software I woudl hope that a degree program woudl cover a number of models of software development. Back in the day I got a recognition award for two projects in a row first was a classic waterfall project (a management system for the Uk's SMDS network) the next was full on RAD/DSDM (early web development).

eliasmacpherson 13y ago
Can you elaborate what you mean by waterfall? Did you have a prototype? I am confused because to my knowledge it has only ever been described as a way not to do things. "The first formal description of the waterfall model is often cited as a 1970 article by Winston W. Royce,[4][5] although Royce did not use the term "waterfall" in this article. Royce presented this model as an example of a flawed, non-working model." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#Model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_model#Model
- walshemj 13y ago
  Actually it was BT's own ISO 9000 based system we spent about 7/8 months on the design/spec stage then 2 of us plus an oracle contractor did the development in a 12 week sprint - so it was a sort of hybrid approach. SMDS/ATM was fairly new at the time our system was designed to manage the kit in the exchanges so that you didn't have some one accidentally shutdown the entire janet university network.