5 ms·

"We didn't like hanging out with them," is a perfectly valid reason to get rid of someone. You spend the majority of your life at work. As an employer it is you

by enneff 13y ago

"We didn't like hanging out with them," is a perfectly valid reason to get rid of someone. You spend the majority of your life at work. As an employer it is your prerogative to employ people you want to be around. It's nobody's right to be employed at a private company. We're social creatures. When it comes to an interaction between people, do not underestimate the social angle. If it's not working on that level it's going to be hard to make it work in other ways, too.

YuriNiyazov 13y ago
For a very long time, I've been a very anti-union, pro-pure-capitalism individual, but it is responses like yours that really make me think it might be time for professional unions for software engineers that defend the right of an engineer not to be fired if he's 1) capable and 2) professional, but happens to not share music tastes with his manager.
- dxhdr 13y ago
  Just an anecdote -- I've known great engineers who slowly became angry, bitter, and defeated about their jobs, bosses and coworkers. They gradually turned sour, subtly poisoning the workplace over time. When confronted, they'd lash out with the defense of "professionalism," that they're more than capable employees who are contributing just as well as anyone. Attitude and enthusiasm nitpicks are irrelevant as long as you're writing code. In short, they deserved to keep the job and could hack it because they were still "professional." The truth is, those people had given up and became toxic to everyone around them. It was time that they move on. Anyhow, whenever I hear the defense of "professionalism" I become fairly suspicious of the circumstances.
  - YuriNiyazov 13y ago
    Actually, I think that saying "but I behave professionally" is equivalent to saying "I am a great lover" or "I am a very humble person" - making such a statement is an automatic disqualification for the quality you are claiming. The point I am trying to make is that if someone says "he/she is capable and behaves professionally, but the culture fit is just not there", that's when I become fairly suspicious of the circumstances.
  - velik_m 13y ago
    I would contest that if they "slowly became angry, bitter, and defeated about their jobs, bosses and coworkers", they weren't the ones doing the poisoning...
    - dxhdr 13y ago
      Very valid point. In the case I witnessed it wasn't any particular person's fault but rather the longer-term consequence of bad "culture fit" allowed to simmer.
- enneff 13y ago
  If you work somewhere that you'll get fired for not having the same music taste then you're better off not working there. I personally would never work somewhere that I was forced to listen to other people's music.
  - YuriNiyazov 13y ago
    This is because you are a software engineer, and are currently enjoying a market where there are more employers looking to hire than hirable engineers. In other words, you have a choice.
    - enneff 13y ago
      You always have a choice.
- pargon 13y ago
  I assume you're not a software engineer. Because if you were, then it would make it sound like you're anti-union and pro-pure-capitalism until it might actually affect YOU.
  - YuriNiyazov 13y ago
    I am very much a software engineer, except that I exclusively work contract jobs where I automatically get fired each time the contract ends, and I don't, and don't intend to, participate in the traditional W2 employer/employee market, so the presence or absence of employee defense unions is irrelevant to me.
- paulhauggis 13y ago
  As a business owner, why should I be forced to continue to employ someone that I don't want? It will just make the hiring process more strict. I know France has these sorts of rules in place and many companies didn't want to hire anyone without experience because it was very difficult to fire someone once you hired them.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Offer them temp contracts until you know you want them, rather than giving them a job and then firing them. Have better management processes so you can solve problems of "cultural fit" rather than just firing people.
RougeFemme 13y ago
I accept that this is often the case, but I still don't understand it. As long as a person is not belligerent/hostile/constantly whining/???, I don't understand why simply being professional, hard-working, smart, creative, etc. is not sufficient. I can even understand firing someone if their working style - however you define that - clashes with that of the rest of the team. Yes, we are social creatures and we spend most of our waking hours working, but why is it so important that you and I enjoy drinking beers with each other - or however you prefer to spend your "leisure time"? It's as if the hiring process is really two-fold: first, is the formal interviewing process - during which your suitability for the role is determined - and second is pledging the greek-letter organization/start-up - during which your suitability for hanging-out is determined.
- enneff 13y ago
  I'm not taking about having beers with the team or how one spends their leisure time. I'm talking saying that it is important to have a functioning social dynamic in the workplace. For example, at Google we place a big emphasis on "Culture fit" during our hiring process, but we have a very diverse workforce. My team and I share few common interests outside of work, but we're all able to get together in a room, communicate effectively, and generally enjoy each other's company. In the past, I have worked with people that I can't wait to get away from. With these people it was a really challenge to get good work done, because to work effectively requires good communication. It's a lot easier to communicate if you actually enjoy talking to the person. None of this has anything to do with musical taste, hobbies, or drinking habits. It's to do with attitude, courtesy, patience, and other character traits. Each workplace is different and different kinds of people will thrive or fail depending on whether they fit the culture of that workplace.
  - ahk 13y ago
    Now you are just relabeling stuff like communication skills as culture fit. How you used 'diversity' to mean fitting into a culture is beyond me. 'We have a diverse culture, everyone better fit in, or else'!!!
- YuriNiyazov 13y ago

by enneff 13y ago

YuriNiyazov 13y ago

For a very long time, I've been a very anti-union, pro-pure-capitalism individual, but it is responses like yours that really make me think it might be time for professional unions for software engineers that defend the right of an engineer not to be fired if he's 1) capable and 2) professional, but happens to not share music tastes with his manager.

dxhdr 13y ago
Just an anecdote -- I've known great engineers who slowly became angry, bitter, and defeated about their jobs, bosses and coworkers. They gradually turned sour, subtly poisoning the workplace over time. When confronted, they'd lash out with the defense of "professionalism," that they're more than capable employees who are contributing just as well as anyone. Attitude and enthusiasm nitpicks are irrelevant as long as you're writing code. In short, they deserved to keep the job and could hack it because they were still "professional." The truth is, those people had given up and became toxic to everyone around them. It was time that they move on. Anyhow, whenever I hear the defense of "professionalism" I become fairly suspicious of the circumstances.
- YuriNiyazov 13y ago
  Actually, I think that saying "but I behave professionally" is equivalent to saying "I am a great lover" or "I am a very humble person" - making such a statement is an automatic disqualification for the quality you are claiming. The point I am trying to make is that if someone says "he/she is capable and behaves professionally, but the culture fit is just not there", that's when I become fairly suspicious of the circumstances.
- velik_m 13y ago
  I would contest that if they "slowly became angry, bitter, and defeated about their jobs, bosses and coworkers", they weren't the ones doing the poisoning...
  - dxhdr 13y ago
    Very valid point. In the case I witnessed it wasn't any particular person's fault but rather the longer-term consequence of bad "culture fit" allowed to simmer.
enneff 13y ago
If you work somewhere that you'll get fired for not having the same music taste then you're better off not working there. I personally would never work somewhere that I was forced to listen to other people's music.
- YuriNiyazov 13y ago
  This is because you are a software engineer, and are currently enjoying a market where there are more employers looking to hire than hirable engineers. In other words, you have a choice.
  - enneff 13y ago
    You always have a choice.
pargon 13y ago
I assume you're not a software engineer. Because if you were, then it would make it sound like you're anti-union and pro-pure-capitalism until it might actually affect YOU.
- YuriNiyazov 13y ago
  I am very much a software engineer, except that I exclusively work contract jobs where I automatically get fired each time the contract ends, and I don't, and don't intend to, participate in the traditional W2 employer/employee market, so the presence or absence of employee defense unions is irrelevant to me.
paulhauggis 13y ago
As a business owner, why should I be forced to continue to employ someone that I don't want? It will just make the hiring process more strict. I know France has these sorts of rules in place and many companies didn't want to hire anyone without experience because it was very difficult to fire someone once you hired them.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Offer them temp contracts until you know you want them, rather than giving them a job and then firing them. Have better management processes so you can solve problems of "cultural fit" rather than just firing people.

RougeFemme 13y ago

I accept that this is often the case, but I still don't understand it. As long as a person is not belligerent/hostile/constantly whining/???, I don't understand why simply being professional, hard-working, smart, creative, etc. is not sufficient. I can even understand firing someone if their working style - however you define that - clashes with that of the rest of the team. Yes, we are social creatures and we spend most of our waking hours working, but why is it so important that you and I enjoy drinking beers with each other - or however you prefer to spend your "leisure time"? It's as if the hiring process is really two-fold: first, is the formal interviewing process - during which your suitability for the role is determined - and second is pledging the greek-letter organization/start-up - during which your suitability for hanging-out is determined.

enneff 13y ago
I'm not taking about having beers with the team or how one spends their leisure time. I'm talking saying that it is important to have a functioning social dynamic in the workplace. For example, at Google we place a big emphasis on "Culture fit" during our hiring process, but we have a very diverse workforce. My team and I share few common interests outside of work, but we're all able to get together in a room, communicate effectively, and generally enjoy each other's company. In the past, I have worked with people that I can't wait to get away from. With these people it was a really challenge to get good work done, because to work effectively requires good communication. It's a lot easier to communicate if you actually enjoy talking to the person. None of this has anything to do with musical taste, hobbies, or drinking habits. It's to do with attitude, courtesy, patience, and other character traits. Each workplace is different and different kinds of people will thrive or fail depending on whether they fit the culture of that workplace.
- ahk 13y ago
  Now you are just relabeling stuff like communication skills as culture fit. How you used 'diversity' to mean fitting into a culture is beyond me. 'We have a diverse culture, everyone better fit in, or else'!!!
YuriNiyazov 13y ago