4 ms·

We should be far more worried about religious indoctrination than this.

kintamanimatt 13y ago
I'm not sure one is worse than the other. Politically motivated indoctrination and religious indoctrination both cripple minds.
seiji 13y ago
I'd love to see people stand up to Big Religion, but... how? Religion is institutionalized mental and physical child abuse and everybody seems a-okay with all of it.
- VLM 13y ago
  An inaccurate claim at the end given the trend toward irreligion in the united states. The wikipedia article of the same title is a pretty good summary.
- ars 13y ago
  > everybody seems a-okay with all of it. Because it's not abuse. Since when did it become socially acceptable to be bigoted in public? If you want to be intolerant at least keep your nastiness to yourself.
  - derleth 13y ago
    So telling little gay kids that they were born broken and are going to Hell isn't abuse? Don't you dare say that it doesn't happen or that it doesn't matter. Don't you dare.
    - drdeca 13y ago
      To me it seems like calling that the fault of "religion" seems roughly analogous to blaming the concept of "government" for the actions of a specific city or state/province government? (that is, either 1 or 2 levels below a national government , though I might have made a mistake with the analogy there) Not all religions/versions of a religion are the same. I acknowledge that an analogy is not always a particularly strong argument, but it was the first responce I thought of, and it seemed an acceptable responce to me. Also, it might have made more sense to respond a few levels up, not sure what would have made the most sense to reply to.
      - derleth 13y ago
        It isn't a bad analogy. My counterargument is that local government policy can usually be changed a lot more easily than religious dogma, especially dogma surrounding who to demonize. Maintaining a strong notion of who is in the in-group and who is in the out-group seems to be an important mechanism in maintaining tribal cohesion. My point is that religions seem prone to demonizing people as a quick and easy way to define themselves and maintain cohesion. Look at all the really nasty doctrinal splits through history.
  - harshreality 13y ago
    Religions that appeal to and demand fealty to a false/unverifiable authority or concept as the truth, rather than encouraging rational discussion and criticism. Religions that push rules based on those appeals to authority into the political realm, and attempt to force others to live by them... Believers who seek to proselytize under the flag of a false/unverifiable authority (typically explicitly supernatural) to non-believers... Parents who pass down the mind-virus of such religions to poor defenseless children... Labeling criticism of any of those bigotry is a panicked attempt to invoke the strong cultural taboo against narrow-minded discrimination, but the criticism and discrimination against those is hardly narrow-minded.
jcromartie 13y ago
I don't live in the South so I don't really know how much that is happening. However, I would imagine that allowing well-funded corporate interests to write curriculum is far more insidious than creationism in the classroom. Religious indoctrination (like Creationism) comes from the community, and only exists in schools in places where the community enables it (like the South). Lobbying has no boundaries.
- harshreality 13y ago
  Good News Clubs are more invasive than that. Those clubs are not started by each community as a whole, but by a radical Christian subset of the community. They are encouraged and supported by a national organization, which gives the clubs legal support when anyone complains. The organization seeks to rip apart secular school communities or convert all children, specifically ages 4-14 because they know children of those ages are least able to reason about what they're told (they would phrase it: "most easily saved"). They are prohibited from trying to brainwash kids during school, but the distinction between normal school clubs and Good News Clubs is essentially non-existent. They try to blur the lines between school and Good News Clubs, in some cases setting up for the club during classes, so that students associate the adults running the clubs with school. They use food, candy, games, and other fun activities to lure kids in. Kids who get indoctrinated end up pressuring other kids, outside of and even during school. This is acknowledged by the organizers of these clubs, and they're thrilled. Paraphrasing, "we can't reach kids who don't join the club, but we can't stop kids from reaching other kids." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04gTo31uLiw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04gTo31uLiw (Interview with the author of a book about these clubs) http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13132235-the-good-news-club http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13132235-the-good-news-cl...

I'm not sure one is worse than the other. Politically motivated indoctrination and religious indoctrination both cripple minds.

seiji 13y ago

I'd love to see people stand up to Big Religion, but... how? Religion is institutionalized mental and physical child abuse and everybody seems a-okay with all of it.

VLM 13y ago
An inaccurate claim at the end given the trend toward irreligion in the united states. The wikipedia article of the same title is a pretty good summary.
ars 13y ago
> everybody seems a-okay with all of it. Because it's not abuse. Since when did it become socially acceptable to be bigoted in public? If you want to be intolerant at least keep your nastiness to yourself.
- derleth 13y ago
  So telling little gay kids that they were born broken and are going to Hell isn't abuse? Don't you dare say that it doesn't happen or that it doesn't matter. Don't you dare.
  - drdeca 13y ago
    To me it seems like calling that the fault of "religion" seems roughly analogous to blaming the concept of "government" for the actions of a specific city or state/province government? (that is, either 1 or 2 levels below a national government , though I might have made a mistake with the analogy there) Not all religions/versions of a religion are the same. I acknowledge that an analogy is not always a particularly strong argument, but it was the first responce I thought of, and it seemed an acceptable responce to me. Also, it might have made more sense to respond a few levels up, not sure what would have made the most sense to reply to.
    - derleth 13y ago
      It isn't a bad analogy. My counterargument is that local government policy can usually be changed a lot more easily than religious dogma, especially dogma surrounding who to demonize. Maintaining a strong notion of who is in the in-group and who is in the out-group seems to be an important mechanism in maintaining tribal cohesion. My point is that religions seem prone to demonizing people as a quick and easy way to define themselves and maintain cohesion. Look at all the really nasty doctrinal splits through history.
- harshreality 13y ago
  Religions that appeal to and demand fealty to a false/unverifiable authority or concept as the truth, rather than encouraging rational discussion and criticism. Religions that push rules based on those appeals to authority into the political realm, and attempt to force others to live by them... Believers who seek to proselytize under the flag of a false/unverifiable authority (typically explicitly supernatural) to non-believers... Parents who pass down the mind-virus of such religions to poor defenseless children... Labeling criticism of any of those bigotry is a panicked attempt to invoke the strong cultural taboo against narrow-minded discrimination, but the criticism and discrimination against those is hardly narrow-minded.

jcromartie 13y ago

I don't live in the South so I don't really know how much that is happening. However, I would imagine that allowing well-funded corporate interests to write curriculum is far more insidious than creationism in the classroom. Religious indoctrination (like Creationism) comes from the community, and only exists in schools in places where the community enables it (like the South). Lobbying has no boundaries.

harshreality 13y ago
Good News Clubs are more invasive than that. Those clubs are not started by each community as a whole, but by a radical Christian subset of the community. They are encouraged and supported by a national organization, which gives the clubs legal support when anyone complains. The organization seeks to rip apart secular school communities or convert all children, specifically ages 4-14 because they know children of those ages are least able to reason about what they're told (they would phrase it: "most easily saved"). They are prohibited from trying to brainwash kids during school, but the distinction between normal school clubs and Good News Clubs is essentially non-existent. They try to blur the lines between school and Good News Clubs, in some cases setting up for the club during classes, so that students associate the adults running the clubs with school. They use food, candy, games, and other fun activities to lure kids in. Kids who get indoctrinated end up pressuring other kids, outside of and even during school. This is acknowledged by the organizers of these clubs, and they're thrilled. Paraphrasing, "we can't reach kids who don't join the club, but we can't stop kids from reaching other kids." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04gTo31uLiw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04gTo31uLiw (Interview with the author of a book about these clubs) http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13132235-the-good-news-club http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13132235-the-good-news-cl...