4 ms·

This isn't a Spanish problem, it's a Southern European problem. You cannot be lazy and expect to lead a good life - the math just won't add up.

adnam 13y ago
Spain has average productivity compared to the rest of the European Union, so you're plain wrong. Check out the data ok oecd.org yourself, if you're not too lazy.
jdimov 13y ago
Bullshit. There is exactly zero statistical correlation between the amount of work you do and the quality of life you lead. Furthermore, it is extremely hypocritical to make comments like yours.
- mjn 13y ago
  In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]]. Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it. [1] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
  - Oletros 13y ago
    And we can start talking about the real worked hours and not the official ones
    - mjn 13y ago
      That's using real worked hours (well, estimates of them by the OECD). In Greece's case the official hours are actually not particularly high for people with regular jobs, just the usual 40 hours/week. But the actual worked hours are quite high, because of the prevalence of unpaid overtime in the private sector, and the large number of mom-and-pop shops that can't afford to hire employees, so work the shop themselves from open 'til close. This contrasts with Northern European work culture, which tends to work exactly the official workweek and not a minute more. I misremembered Belgium, though; it was the Netherlands that's the lowest in the OECD. Here is the list: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
  - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
    > Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest. Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans. I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the Netherlands is one of the most productive countries in the world, if GDP (PPP) is to be believed[1]. (Then again, on that chart, Greece is placed only one spot lower, so that may not be the best source.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
    - mjn 13y ago
      Sure, I'm simply responding to the "laziness" argument. Greece's problem is indeed productivity, not lack of hard work. There are a lot of hard-working mom-and-pop shops which put in many hours, but cannot anymore compete in a globalized economy, when their international competitors are streamlined corporations. Here in Denmark we work fewer hours, but rather than work them in a DIY import/export business like is common in Greece, in Denmark those hours are put into a giant globalized logistics business like Maersk. The end result is more productivity, not because the individual Maersk employee is more hardworking while the Greek import/export guy is lazy (the opposite is likely true), but simply because 10,000 mom-and-pop businesses put together cannot compete with a well-oiled machine like Maersk.
      - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
        I agree. I also think that education level might have something to do with it. As a farmer or factory worker, you’ll likely work hard, but your contribution probably won’t be reflected as much in GDP as an engineer’s work.
        olmo 13y ago
        We have plenty of engineers in spain (me being one). http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/students.png http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/st... http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/graduates.png http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/gr...
icebraining 13y ago
Is there anything besides prejudice that makes you say that? Because reports and studies about my country's have consistently shown that the biggest hurdle is incompetent and poorly prepared managers (often the business owners) and institutional corruption, not lazy workers.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
Spain has a higher productivity per employed worker than Germany, however since the collapse of the construction industry they have rampant unemployment. The Spanish are not lazy, although your argument certainly is. http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-workers-versus-northern-european-workers-5-charts/ http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-worke... http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-in-spain-2008-2012/ http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-i...
- acchow 13y ago
  The productivity is measured in an abstract unit (currency), not the actual quality and quantity of product - thus it is open to distortions (such as abnormally high foreign investment).
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    Fair enough. If we ignore the numbers and just look at the situation a little more generally then, Spain has gone through a massive construction boom that was typified by speculative overbuilding, which is part of the current problem now that too much has been built and the real estate prices have collapsed. Building far too much is not often associated with lazyness on the part of the workforce.

adnam 13y ago

Spain has average productivity compared to the rest of the European Union, so you're plain wrong. Check out the data ok oecd.org yourself, if you're not too lazy.

jdimov 13y ago

Bullshit. There is exactly zero statistical correlation between the amount of work you do and the quality of life you lead. Furthermore, it is extremely hypocritical to make comments like yours.

mjn 13y ago
In Europe the correlation is rather in the other direction. Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest [edit: oops, actually Dutch [1]]. Here in prosperous Denmark, the official workweek is 37 hours, not 40, and the limit is taken seriously. When we do joint projects with Southern Europeans, they seem to regularly be working weekends and evenings, and get paid less than us for it. [1] http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
- Oletros 13y ago
  And we can start talking about the real worked hours and not the official ones
  - mjn 13y ago
    That's using real worked hours (well, estimates of them by the OECD). In Greece's case the official hours are actually not particularly high for people with regular jobs, just the usual 40 hours/week. But the actual worked hours are quite high, because of the prevalence of unpaid overtime in the private sector, and the large number of mom-and-pop shops that can't afford to hire employees, so work the shop themselves from open 'til close. This contrasts with Northern European work culture, which tends to work exactly the official workweek and not a minute more. I misremembered Belgium, though; it was the Netherlands that's the lowest in the OECD. Here is the list: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  > Greeks work the most hours/year on average, and Belgians work the fewest. Also taking into account GDP divided by population, that implies Greeks get less done per hour than Belgians. To call Southern Europeans ‘lazy’ would be a bit much, but I do think the numbers support that they have a different work ethic from Northern Europeans. I live in the Netherlands, where people work 30 hours a week on average. Yet, the Netherlands is one of the most productive countries in the world, if GDP (PPP) is to be believed[1]. (Then again, on that chart, Greece is placed only one spot lower, so that may not be the best source.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
  - mjn 13y ago
    Sure, I'm simply responding to the "laziness" argument. Greece's problem is indeed productivity, not lack of hard work. There are a lot of hard-working mom-and-pop shops which put in many hours, but cannot anymore compete in a globalized economy, when their international competitors are streamlined corporations. Here in Denmark we work fewer hours, but rather than work them in a DIY import/export business like is common in Greece, in Denmark those hours are put into a giant globalized logistics business like Maersk. The end result is more productivity, not because the individual Maersk employee is more hardworking while the Greek import/export guy is lazy (the opposite is likely true), but simply because 10,000 mom-and-pop businesses put together cannot compete with a well-oiled machine like Maersk.
    - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
      I agree. I also think that education level might have something to do with it. As a farmer or factory worker, you’ll likely work hard, but your contribution probably won’t be reflected as much in GDP as an engineer’s work.
      - olmo 13y ago
        We have plenty of engineers in spain (me being one). http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/students.png http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/st... http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/graduates.png http://capitalsocialenespanol.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/gr...

icebraining 13y ago

Is there anything besides prejudice that makes you say that? Because reports and studies about my country's have consistently shown that the biggest hurdle is incompetent and poorly prepared managers (often the business owners) and institutional corruption, not lazy workers.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

Spain has a higher productivity per employed worker than Germany, however since the collapse of the construction industry they have rampant unemployment. The Spanish are not lazy, although your argument certainly is. http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-workers-versus-northern-european-workers-5-charts/ http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-worke... http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-in-spain-2008-2012/ http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-i...

acchow 13y ago
The productivity is measured in an abstract unit (currency), not the actual quality and quantity of product - thus it is open to distortions (such as abnormally high foreign investment).
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  Fair enough. If we ignore the numbers and just look at the situation a little more generally then, Spain has gone through a massive construction boom that was typified by speculative overbuilding, which is part of the current problem now that too much has been built and the real estate prices have collapsed. Building far too much is not often associated with lazyness on the part of the workforce.