3 ms·

Are you joking? Remember that Obama was against warrantless wiretaps during his candidacy. http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/04/all-the-better-to-hear-you-wi

Are you joking? Remember that Obama was against warrantless wiretaps during his candidacy. http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/04/all-the-better-to-hear-you-with/ http://thisishistorictimes.com/2009/04/all-the-better-to-hea...

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Yes, that's my point. What had formerly been an exclusively "conservative" position became a matter of complete hegemony. Obama has pretty much pissed off most of the constituency that formerly called itself "liberal".
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Wiretapping and spying has been a "liberal" position (by the conventional definition, not necessarily lukifers) at least since the Clinton era. Republicans got on board with this only in the Bush era. Joe Biden's reaction to the Patriot Act was simply to protest that Ashcroft just copied his 1996 bill.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    In any international discussion, "liberal" used bare is going to be tremendously confusing - there is no "conventional definition", there are 10 different definitions each of which is mainstream in a different place. Wiretapping and spying was a Democratic position under Clinton, and the virtuous Republicans opposed it. Wiretapping and spying was a Republican position under Bush and the virtuous Democrats opposed it. Do you honestly expect, though, that there wasn't spying under Bush Sr., who had been head of the CIA? And obviously wiretapping and spying was J. Edgar Hoover's position under a host of administrations of both parties. Really, in recent times wiretapping and spying support/opposition in politicians seems to better track the power held by the politician than anything else.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Separately, politicians speak to multiple ideologies and represent multiple constituencies, and pointing to the actions of a politician as clearly establishing the views of a particular ideology (unless that ideology is defined in reference to the politician - "Maoism" or whatnot) is likely to steer you wrong.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago

Yes, that's my point. What had formerly been an exclusively "conservative" position became a matter of complete hegemony. Obama has pretty much pissed off most of the constituency that formerly called itself "liberal".

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Wiretapping and spying has been a "liberal" position (by the conventional definition, not necessarily lukifers) at least since the Clinton era. Republicans got on board with this only in the Bush era. Joe Biden's reaction to the Patriot Act was simply to protest that Ashcroft just copied his 1996 bill.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  In any international discussion, "liberal" used bare is going to be tremendously confusing - there is no "conventional definition", there are 10 different definitions each of which is mainstream in a different place. Wiretapping and spying was a Democratic position under Clinton, and the virtuous Republicans opposed it. Wiretapping and spying was a Republican position under Bush and the virtuous Democrats opposed it. Do you honestly expect, though, that there wasn't spying under Bush Sr., who had been head of the CIA? And obviously wiretapping and spying was J. Edgar Hoover's position under a host of administrations of both parties. Really, in recent times wiretapping and spying support/opposition in politicians seems to better track the power held by the politician than anything else.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Separately, politicians speak to multiple ideologies and represent multiple constituencies, and pointing to the actions of a politician as clearly establishing the views of a particular ideology (unless that ideology is defined in reference to the politician - "Maoism" or whatnot) is likely to steer you wrong.