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The way to rise above IQ is to stop thinking about oneself and stop being so competitive. This parochial attitude leads to depression and failure. The truest,

The way to rise above IQ is to stop thinking about oneself and stop being so competitive. This parochial attitude leads to depression and failure. The truest, most promising motivation for mastering a field or a craft lies in the beauty of the craft itself. Beauty is the greatest stimulus for creativity and imagination. It makes all things gentle and easy. Technical competence follows as the night the day.

Emore 17y ago
Interestingly, my impression is that this is exactly the strategy that Asian-Americans _don't_ use. While I completely agree on your argument, I don't see many people driven by the beauty fo the craft itself. My guess is that competition and shortcuts are simply much more effective in quickly reaching success. The sad fact might be that it is perfectly possible to master a field or craft without a passion for the subject. Simply because passion is not competitively passable.
- gruseom 17y ago
  I don't mean to pick on you personally, but the fact that you responded to that rather profound comment with a borderline racial slur is indicative of what's wrong with this thread and this entire class of conversation and article. It makes me want to walk on the other side of the street. Edit: I guess I should be more careful in putting this. I like frankness and don't believe in imposing ideological rules on discourse. But I also observe that discussions around this stuff tend to be of low quality. Your comment struck me as a nice example because the first sentence seemed nasty and jarring and the rest of the comment was just fine.
  - amichail 17y ago
    It is strange that Hacker News bans religion/politics submissions but allows IQ article submissions such as this. IQ article submissions have the potential to be more offensive for many people than any submission on religion/politics.
  - Emore 17y ago
    With "Asian-American" I meant international students temporarily studying abroad, NOT Americans of Asian descent. I see no racism when referring to the first group, since the Chinese education system (I'm only familiar with the Chinese and Thai education system) is too a much larger extent composed around pure memorization of either language or math. I'm very sorry if what I posted came out as racial slur. It was not my intention, since I certainly do not identify myself even remotely with that kind of arguments.
- tel 17y ago
  My experience with Chinese college students this last month has given me essentially the same impression. The interesting part though is that, widely, they are very self aware and frustrated by this. It's hard not to draw a line directly between exam-based curricula and these sorts of techniques.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    from parent comment: Asian-Americans from the comment to which this reply is attached: Chinese college students I take it that both of these statements refer to an ethnic group specified as "they," that is to people who have a different ethnic identity from the person posting the statement. I too am not Chinese, but I am a speaker of the Chinese language and am married into an (ethnically) Chinese family and have lived in east Asia for six years and I think these statements are too superficial and based on insufficient acquaintance with Asian-American and Chinese people. There is plenty of pursuit of art for art's sake and desire for deep understanding of a subject among Chinese people. Perhaps this is not noticed by Westerners who have not had enough curiosity about Chinese language and culture to have had many deep encounters with the behavior of Chinese people.
    - tel 17y ago
      The above wasn't meant to be a judgmental statement, though I realize now that they way it was written came off that way. More appropriately I should have written something to the extent: Many of the Chinese students I have met over the last month have expressed this same concern (without and without provocation) that educational systems in China stress too heavily testing and rote memorization. Additionally, at least at PKU, there is an increasing motion toward "western" teaching and evaluation methods, especially in post-graduate studies, which are considered an improvement. The same critiques have been provided by American college students, of course, but comparatively the systems seem to suggest that American colleges produce more "real life" experiences which aid students especially in research settings. I agree entirely that there is plenty "art for art's sake" practiced every day here. A simple example includes the man who teaches his child calligraphy several mornings each week outside painting it in water on the concrete. My Chinese isn't strong enough to have a deep conversation with this man, but it was plain that he's doing it just because he loves his art and wants to show that to his son. Finally, I'd like to refute the pigeonholing: I've studied Chinese for two years and am here now both to do research and have those deep encounters you refer to. I can't say I have anything comparable to your experience, but I also feel I'm on the side of trying not to make superficial generalizations.
- DaniFong 17y ago
  This seems far better attributed to the drive of certain ethnic groups to sustain upward mobility in a stratified society, than to any disregard intrinsic qualities of craft.
rw 17y ago
Competition leads to much waste, in the aggregate.
- randallsquared 17y ago
  Not nearly so much as cooperation in the wrong direction.
- billswift 17y ago
  No. Competition leads to improvement in the aggregate. It leads to "waste" of the resources of the losers.
gruseom 17y ago
I agree on both points. It's a weakness to think of art, or craft, or work as self-expression in the first place. It blocks flow. This is not widely understood in our society.
xenonite 17y ago
The author writes about success. His statement is: with more work you can achieve the same success than another person with a higher IQ. ==> Work irons out ones inferior IQ. Actually mastering a field or craft, or having success simply requires a lot of work.
- billswift 17y ago
  Working harder can reduce some differences, but no one without an adequate level of intelligence is going to be a competent, much less really successful, mathematician or physicist or any intellectually challenging field.
  - xenonite 17y ago
    What do you consider as an adequate level of intelligence? And what kind of intelligence? I suppose that being a manager requires a lot of social intelligence... The problem I see: to balance out a deficit, one has to work more or to delegate that work. The advantage I see: everyone is different, so that everyone contributes different things in his field. Yes, the basic level of understanding needs to be, but everything else is open.
bokonist 17y ago
In my observation, the causation usually runs the other way. People enjoy things that give them a good effort->reward loop. If something is too hard, it is frustrating and not fun. Too easy, and it is boring. I enjoy programming because it is constant puzzle solving at exactly the right level of challenge for my brain. But other people simply do not have the programming gene and thus they never enjoy it. I also disagree that competition is a bad thing. Competition is often fun and exhilarating. It has stimulated humanity's greatest achievements. The bad kind of competition tends to be competition over artificial goals (such as grades). But competition over real goals - getting to the moon, setting a world record in sprinting, building the world's best search engine - can be a tremendous driving force.
- s-phi-nl 17y ago
  An interesting example of this is my enjoyment of programming versus my lack of enjoyment for physical experiments. Physical experiments take (in my opinion) too much effort in controlling the variables for the reward of good observations.
- tungstenfurnace 17y ago
  Yes, some kinds of competition are good e.g. products competing for market share. However, even here, comparative advantage (specialising and creating a niche) seems to promote survival more reliably than competitive advantage. The issue is over where one directs creativity. Asking "Am I the best astronaut in the world?", for example, is less fruitful than searching for the neatest way is ensure all space tools are returned to the space station.

Emore 17y ago

Interestingly, my impression is that this is exactly the strategy that Asian-Americans _don't_ use. While I completely agree on your argument, I don't see many people driven by the beauty fo the craft itself. My guess is that competition and shortcuts are simply much more effective in quickly reaching success. The sad fact might be that it is perfectly possible to master a field or craft without a passion for the subject. Simply because passion is not competitively passable.

gruseom 17y ago
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but the fact that you responded to that rather profound comment with a borderline racial slur is indicative of what's wrong with this thread and this entire class of conversation and article. It makes me want to walk on the other side of the street. Edit: I guess I should be more careful in putting this. I like frankness and don't believe in imposing ideological rules on discourse. But I also observe that discussions around this stuff tend to be of low quality. Your comment struck me as a nice example because the first sentence seemed nasty and jarring and the rest of the comment was just fine.
- amichail 17y ago
  It is strange that Hacker News bans religion/politics submissions but allows IQ article submissions such as this. IQ article submissions have the potential to be more offensive for many people than any submission on religion/politics.
- Emore 17y ago
  With "Asian-American" I meant international students temporarily studying abroad, NOT Americans of Asian descent. I see no racism when referring to the first group, since the Chinese education system (I'm only familiar with the Chinese and Thai education system) is too a much larger extent composed around pure memorization of either language or math. I'm very sorry if what I posted came out as racial slur. It was not my intention, since I certainly do not identify myself even remotely with that kind of arguments.
tel 17y ago
My experience with Chinese college students this last month has given me essentially the same impression. The interesting part though is that, widely, they are very self aware and frustrated by this. It's hard not to draw a line directly between exam-based curricula and these sorts of techniques.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  from parent comment: Asian-Americans from the comment to which this reply is attached: Chinese college students I take it that both of these statements refer to an ethnic group specified as "they," that is to people who have a different ethnic identity from the person posting the statement. I too am not Chinese, but I am a speaker of the Chinese language and am married into an (ethnically) Chinese family and have lived in east Asia for six years and I think these statements are too superficial and based on insufficient acquaintance with Asian-American and Chinese people. There is plenty of pursuit of art for art's sake and desire for deep understanding of a subject among Chinese people. Perhaps this is not noticed by Westerners who have not had enough curiosity about Chinese language and culture to have had many deep encounters with the behavior of Chinese people.
  - tel 17y ago
    The above wasn't meant to be a judgmental statement, though I realize now that they way it was written came off that way. More appropriately I should have written something to the extent: Many of the Chinese students I have met over the last month have expressed this same concern (without and without provocation) that educational systems in China stress too heavily testing and rote memorization. Additionally, at least at PKU, there is an increasing motion toward "western" teaching and evaluation methods, especially in post-graduate studies, which are considered an improvement. The same critiques have been provided by American college students, of course, but comparatively the systems seem to suggest that American colleges produce more "real life" experiences which aid students especially in research settings. I agree entirely that there is plenty "art for art's sake" practiced every day here. A simple example includes the man who teaches his child calligraphy several mornings each week outside painting it in water on the concrete. My Chinese isn't strong enough to have a deep conversation with this man, but it was plain that he's doing it just because he loves his art and wants to show that to his son. Finally, I'd like to refute the pigeonholing: I've studied Chinese for two years and am here now both to do research and have those deep encounters you refer to. I can't say I have anything comparable to your experience, but I also feel I'm on the side of trying not to make superficial generalizations.
DaniFong 17y ago
This seems far better attributed to the drive of certain ethnic groups to sustain upward mobility in a stratified society, than to any disregard intrinsic qualities of craft.

rw 17y ago

Competition leads to much waste, in the aggregate.

randallsquared 17y ago
Not nearly so much as cooperation in the wrong direction.
billswift 17y ago
No. Competition leads to improvement in the aggregate. It leads to "waste" of the resources of the losers.

gruseom 17y ago

I agree on both points. It's a weakness to think of art, or craft, or work as self-expression in the first place. It blocks flow. This is not widely understood in our society.

xenonite 17y ago

The author writes about success. His statement is: with more work you can achieve the same success than another person with a higher IQ. ==> Work irons out ones inferior IQ. Actually mastering a field or craft, or having success simply requires a lot of work.

billswift 17y ago
Working harder can reduce some differences, but no one without an adequate level of intelligence is going to be a competent, much less really successful, mathematician or physicist or any intellectually challenging field.
- xenonite 17y ago
  What do you consider as an adequate level of intelligence? And what kind of intelligence? I suppose that being a manager requires a lot of social intelligence... The problem I see: to balance out a deficit, one has to work more or to delegate that work. The advantage I see: everyone is different, so that everyone contributes different things in his field. Yes, the basic level of understanding needs to be, but everything else is open.

bokonist 17y ago

In my observation, the causation usually runs the other way. People enjoy things that give them a good effort->reward loop. If something is too hard, it is frustrating and not fun. Too easy, and it is boring. I enjoy programming because it is constant puzzle solving at exactly the right level of challenge for my brain. But other people simply do not have the programming gene and thus they never enjoy it. I also disagree that competition is a bad thing. Competition is often fun and exhilarating. It has stimulated humanity's greatest achievements. The bad kind of competition tends to be competition over artificial goals (such as grades). But competition over real goals - getting to the moon, setting a world record in sprinting, building the world's best search engine - can be a tremendous driving force.

s-phi-nl 17y ago
An interesting example of this is my enjoyment of programming versus my lack of enjoyment for physical experiments. Physical experiments take (in my opinion) too much effort in controlling the variables for the reward of good observations.
tungstenfurnace 17y ago
Yes, some kinds of competition are good e.g. products competing for market share. However, even here, comparative advantage (specialising and creating a niche) seems to promote survival more reliably than competitive advantage. The issue is over where one directs creativity. Asking "Am I the best astronaut in the world?", for example, is less fruitful than searching for the neatest way is ensure all space tools are returned to the space station.