9 ms·

NSA chief sidesteps queries on cellphone location tracking

47 points by sethbannon 13y ago

frank_boyd 13y ago
1. Since Snowden's revelations, we'll always have to assume the worst. 2. Any answers from any of these government agencies must be assumed to be lies (except for admission of guilt, of course) or to be misleading. So, the circus is almost certainly worth nothing anyway.
- bediger4000 13y ago
  I heartily endorse items (1) and (2), but I disagree with your conclusion. At the very least, having a major paper put out the denials so publicly will allow folks to match the inevitable Glenn Greenwald or Bart Gellman shocking revelation with the original lame denials. It's like Ben Franklin wrote, everybody's good for something, even if it's only as the "before" exhibit.
swombat 13y ago
For the record, I am saddened to see that HN has given up on giving stories about this their proper place. There haven't been many stories on the topic rising to the top recently, and the few who did sank back down quickly, presumably under the weight of flaggings by people who'd rather read about Erlang or web design or funding topics or startup stories or obscure technological marvels or some other worthy topic (not sarcastic - I think those are fine topics to read about). It is sad to see that in the end, distraction wins. Huxley was right - the world is going to turn bad before our eyes but we (as a civilisation) won't care, it's more fun to just read about what we like. We're just too good at producing stuff that we like to read, and at ignoring stuff that's uncomfortable. Until this is resolved in some way, there should not be a day that passes without one of the top HN stories being about NSA spying.
- mintplant 13y ago
  There are plenty of places to talk about the NSA outside this site. The issue has taken over the conversation on so many discussion boards that I'd much prefer if HN doesn't get drowned out by the same. Especially if the actual content is mostly speculation.
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    One or two links out of 30 on the frontpage is hardly what I'd consider "drowned out".
    - mintplant 13y ago
      Sure, it may be one link at this exact moment, but there's been plenty more of these articles filling up the front page since the start of this whole situation. It wouldn't be as bad if most of them didn't just repeat old information.
  - atlanticus 13y ago
    People want to pretend that their government is not cutting deals with the US for the same info, which is fine as long as you realize you are just pretending.
  - swombat 13y ago
    Pray tell what those places are. I don't have any other such places. Also, HN was drowned out for the first week or so. Then it became a steady trickle. Then a bunch of people, presumably such as yourself, decided that even that trickle was irritating to them and started flagging NSA stories on sight. Since then the trickle has died out, and there is nothing. Obama and his cohorts can go back to bed in peace, knowing this was just another internet fad and, as predicted, the geeks are easily distracted by some new gadgets or talk of technical gimmicks.
    - krapp 13y ago
      >Obama and his cohorts can go back to bed in peace, knowing this was just another internet fad and, as predicted, the geeks are easily distracted by some new gadgets or talk of technical gimmicks. Yes, because Obama and his cohorts were really sweating over what Hacker News thought about anything.
- sethbannon 13y ago
  This is how liberty dies.
throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
They're not "tracking" your cellphones. You are voluntarily transmitting the location of your cellphones to telecoms, who can do whatever they want with it. It is not a "search" under the 5th (sorry! 4th!) amendment, because the information is the property of a third party. Also it's just metadata. edit: This comment is meant to be sardonic.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  Wrong amendment, "just metadata", "they're not tracking your cellphones" Sheesh, no wonder you posted with a throwaway.
  - throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
    Sorry about the wrong amendment! I need a coffee. I think the tone of my comment didn't come through clearly, I've added a disclaimer.
- Coincoin 13y ago
  By that logic, they are also allowed to tap my phone line without a warrant since I'm transmitting my voice willingly to the phone company. edit: woooosh
ISL 13y ago
Ron Wyden would appear to be a patriot in the true sense of the word. It's refreshing to see the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide" approach turned about.
ankushnarula 13y ago
How they gonna drone your ass if they can't track your ass? In all seriousness - at the Aspen Institute talks former NSA chief General Hayden emphasized that location data is much more important than the content of mobile wireless traffic. So this tells me that if "they" know where you are, they can at the very least deploy assets to contain, apprehend, or neutralize a target. The US almost certainly used this technique to track and kill US Citizen turned al-Qaeda soldier Anwar Awlaki in Yemen (no due process/no trial).

47 points by sethbannon 13y ago

1. Since Snowden's revelations, we'll always have to assume the worst. 2. Any answers from any of these government agencies must be assumed to be lies (except for admission of guilt, of course) or to be misleading. So, the circus is almost certainly worth nothing anyway.

bediger4000 13y ago
I heartily endorse items (1) and (2), but I disagree with your conclusion. At the very least, having a major paper put out the denials so publicly will allow folks to match the inevitable Glenn Greenwald or Bart Gellman shocking revelation with the original lame denials. It's like Ben Franklin wrote, everybody's good for something, even if it's only as the "before" exhibit.

swombat 13y ago

For the record, I am saddened to see that HN has given up on giving stories about this their proper place. There haven't been many stories on the topic rising to the top recently, and the few who did sank back down quickly, presumably under the weight of flaggings by people who'd rather read about Erlang or web design or funding topics or startup stories or obscure technological marvels or some other worthy topic (not sarcastic - I think those are fine topics to read about). It is sad to see that in the end, distraction wins. Huxley was right - the world is going to turn bad before our eyes but we (as a civilisation) won't care, it's more fun to just read about what we like. We're just too good at producing stuff that we like to read, and at ignoring stuff that's uncomfortable. Until this is resolved in some way, there should not be a day that passes without one of the top HN stories being about NSA spying.

mintplant 13y ago
There are plenty of places to talk about the NSA outside this site. The issue has taken over the conversation on so many discussion boards that I'd much prefer if HN doesn't get drowned out by the same. Especially if the actual content is mostly speculation.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  One or two links out of 30 on the frontpage is hardly what I'd consider "drowned out".
  - mintplant 13y ago
    Sure, it may be one link at this exact moment, but there's been plenty more of these articles filling up the front page since the start of this whole situation. It wouldn't be as bad if most of them didn't just repeat old information.
- atlanticus 13y ago
  People want to pretend that their government is not cutting deals with the US for the same info, which is fine as long as you realize you are just pretending.
- swombat 13y ago
  Pray tell what those places are. I don't have any other such places. Also, HN was drowned out for the first week or so. Then it became a steady trickle. Then a bunch of people, presumably such as yourself, decided that even that trickle was irritating to them and started flagging NSA stories on sight. Since then the trickle has died out, and there is nothing. Obama and his cohorts can go back to bed in peace, knowing this was just another internet fad and, as predicted, the geeks are easily distracted by some new gadgets or talk of technical gimmicks.
  - krapp 13y ago
    >Obama and his cohorts can go back to bed in peace, knowing this was just another internet fad and, as predicted, the geeks are easily distracted by some new gadgets or talk of technical gimmicks. Yes, because Obama and his cohorts were really sweating over what Hacker News thought about anything.
sethbannon 13y ago
This is how liberty dies.

throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago

They're not "tracking" your cellphones. You are voluntarily transmitting the location of your cellphones to telecoms, who can do whatever they want with it. It is not a "search" under the 5th (sorry! 4th!) amendment, because the information is the property of a third party. Also it's just metadata. edit: This comment is meant to be sardonic.

pyrocat 13y ago
Wrong amendment, "just metadata", "they're not tracking your cellphones" Sheesh, no wonder you posted with a throwaway.
- throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
  Sorry about the wrong amendment! I need a coffee. I think the tone of my comment didn't come through clearly, I've added a disclaimer.
Coincoin 13y ago
By that logic, they are also allowed to tap my phone line without a warrant since I'm transmitting my voice willingly to the phone company. edit: woooosh

ISL 13y ago

Ron Wyden would appear to be a patriot in the true sense of the word. It's refreshing to see the "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide" approach turned about.

ankushnarula 13y ago

How they gonna drone your ass if they can't track your ass? In all seriousness - at the Aspen Institute talks former NSA chief General Hayden emphasized that location data is much more important than the content of mobile wireless traffic. So this tells me that if "they" know where you are, they can at the very least deploy assets to contain, apprehend, or neutralize a target. The US almost certainly used this technique to track and kill US Citizen turned al-Qaeda soldier Anwar Awlaki in Yemen (no due process/no trial).