3 ms·

There's been a lot of hating on higher education around here lately, so I'll take the contrarian position. Before I get started, I will say that higher educati

by pj 17y ago

There's been a lot of hating on higher education around here lately, so I'll take the contrarian position. Before I get started, I will say that higher education costs way too much. Our students should not be $100,000 in debt when they graduate. However, I do believe education has a value. I have been a coder for a long time now and I've seen lots of coders. I survived the dotbomb in '00 and never got laid off. Meanwhile, I saw biz school grads and history majors and other nontechnical degree holders lose job after job. They failed certification exams and wrote really bad code. These individuals would say things like, "You don't need computer science training, it's easy to learn on the job -- everyone should get a business degree." I had to maintain their code, so I know the truth in their words, or lack there of. When I got my degree, we learned assembly language on sparcs. We learned verilog and built virtual CPUs. We built digital circuits out of AND and OR gates. We had labs and projects and very hard problems to solve. We gained an intimate understanding of the machine you won't get learning PHP on your own or Ruby on Rails from blogs on the net. Most importantly, we were taught how to think. I've seen the kids coming out of college today. I see their code. I see what they admire in an app. I talk to their professors and hear their dismay that maybe one kid in their class "gets code." In a large part, college is a test of commitment. It is a filter for dedication. If you don't believe enough in your future to take advantage of an education... of an opportunity to learn, then what good are you to a business that has to learn how to navigate these difficult economic waters?

messel 17y ago
Thanks for the feedback pj, the experiences you had in school were fundamental to your learning the basics of computers. I'd argue you could have learned much if not all of that on your own, or with some friends in less time than it took you to graduate. In addition things have changed so much in the past 20 years that the nand gates I used to play with in school don't aid me much in understanding modern digital circuitry, I have to keep reading and learning-> school was only the beginning. My quick background: physics undergrad (then a MSEE). It shouldn't have taken 6 years of my life to learn what I needed. There were some incredible serendipitous finds, but the timeline is too long and the focus just wasn't there. By the end of my first year I was learning with friends in study groups and from books much more than I got out of class. I learned coding on the job. It was an engineering position so my school wasn't wasted per se. But any Basic (on the TI99) or pascal toy coding I did beforehand did little to prepare me. Real work experience was a powerful teacher. Actually working with a group of software developers, following some standards, and working on my own small/easy sections of the code at first is what eventually cemented the process of coding. But then there was the matter of design. The design of structures, data flow, processes came from working problems that demanded real time (or near real time) efficiency. I learned with C++, and veered away from java for the speed issue. Would you agree there is room for alternative learning besides college educations in preparation for tomorrow's workforce?
- pj 17y ago
  Oh yeah, I absolutely think that there is room for alternative learning. I think alternative learning is much better than the mainstream stuff most kids get. My personal bias, I came from a small rural community where education wasn't really valued much. I was "rescued" from this environment and given educational opportunities most never dream of. I am glad I had those opportunites. I think much of it is just being around a group of peers who are similarly motivated to learn. Being around teachers who can help guide you or understand where you are in your learning. This kind of environment exists in higher education for the most part, where it doesn't exist as much elsewhere. This kind of group harmony is difficult to find. In my community it hardly exists, but institutions of education are focused, target rich environments for people who want to learn. You also have to admit that these institutions aren't really designed for advanced learners. They are designed for the average learner. The average student. People with a lot of aptitude and potential to rise well above the average are going to find higher ed as stiffling as they find high school. In my opinion, I think higher ed is mostly about "getting your papers". Yes, the motivated individual can go out there and learn way more than the average A-level graduate, but how does the world know? How do I know where you fit within social structure? Are you a type A person or a type B person? What kind of aptitude do you have? There are lots of problems yes. The valedictorian in the grade above me was well known to be a prolific cheater. Passing notes in class after the professor left. Discussing answers. I admired the guy, but I heard multiple stories from people in his classes who didn't know each other that he was dishonorable. I didn't know. The professors didn't know. Yet he ranked high in the list when he graduated. That's an unfortunate anecdote to illustrate the problems. But I suppose we have to look at the system as a whole. I'm not sure the solution is to do away with higher education, but rather to focus on the right kinds of higher education. Even things like apprenticeships would be a good alternative to many. To echo your thoughts, I don't use digital logic circuits to do my job either, but how can I measure the positive impact that education has on my work now? Would I write better or worse code had I not learned what I learned in school. I haven't coded a linked list from scratch in over a decade, but I know the concept. Perhaps the greatest value of education is that it forces us to expand our usable neuronal footprint. It helps our brain recruit neurons to solve problems. A lot of our neurons just sit there waiting to be used for something. Higher education exercises those neurons and makes them easier to put to "productive" use later on. Another of the motivators for higher ed, I think, are that, "Well... I got a degree, so because I want to keep them valuable, I have to select from those who agree with me." We spent a lot of money getting degrees, so we want to believe they are worth something. The dichotomy though, that higher education is worth something or it isn't, is a false one. How do you measure the value of education? ROI? Personal fulfillment? Opened or closed doors?

by pj 17y ago

messel 17y ago

Thanks for the feedback pj, the experiences you had in school were fundamental to your learning the basics of computers. I'd argue you could have learned much if not all of that on your own, or with some friends in less time than it took you to graduate. In addition things have changed so much in the past 20 years that the nand gates I used to play with in school don't aid me much in understanding modern digital circuitry, I have to keep reading and learning-> school was only the beginning. My quick background: physics undergrad (then a MSEE). It shouldn't have taken 6 years of my life to learn what I needed. There were some incredible serendipitous finds, but the timeline is too long and the focus just wasn't there. By the end of my first year I was learning with friends in study groups and from books much more than I got out of class. I learned coding on the job. It was an engineering position so my school wasn't wasted per se. But any Basic (on the TI99) or pascal toy coding I did beforehand did little to prepare me. Real work experience was a powerful teacher. Actually working with a group of software developers, following some standards, and working on my own small/easy sections of the code at first is what eventually cemented the process of coding. But then there was the matter of design. The design of structures, data flow, processes came from working problems that demanded real time (or near real time) efficiency. I learned with C++, and veered away from java for the speed issue. Would you agree there is room for alternative learning besides college educations in preparation for tomorrow's workforce?

pj 17y ago
Oh yeah, I absolutely think that there is room for alternative learning. I think alternative learning is much better than the mainstream stuff most kids get. My personal bias, I came from a small rural community where education wasn't really valued much. I was "rescued" from this environment and given educational opportunities most never dream of. I am glad I had those opportunites. I think much of it is just being around a group of peers who are similarly motivated to learn. Being around teachers who can help guide you or understand where you are in your learning. This kind of environment exists in higher education for the most part, where it doesn't exist as much elsewhere. This kind of group harmony is difficult to find. In my community it hardly exists, but institutions of education are focused, target rich environments for people who want to learn. You also have to admit that these institutions aren't really designed for advanced learners. They are designed for the average learner. The average student. People with a lot of aptitude and potential to rise well above the average are going to find higher ed as stiffling as they find high school. In my opinion, I think higher ed is mostly about "getting your papers". Yes, the motivated individual can go out there and learn way more than the average A-level graduate, but how does the world know? How do I know where you fit within social structure? Are you a type A person or a type B person? What kind of aptitude do you have? There are lots of problems yes. The valedictorian in the grade above me was well known to be a prolific cheater. Passing notes in class after the professor left. Discussing answers. I admired the guy, but I heard multiple stories from people in his classes who didn't know each other that he was dishonorable. I didn't know. The professors didn't know. Yet he ranked high in the list when he graduated. That's an unfortunate anecdote to illustrate the problems. But I suppose we have to look at the system as a whole. I'm not sure the solution is to do away with higher education, but rather to focus on the right kinds of higher education. Even things like apprenticeships would be a good alternative to many. To echo your thoughts, I don't use digital logic circuits to do my job either, but how can I measure the positive impact that education has on my work now? Would I write better or worse code had I not learned what I learned in school. I haven't coded a linked list from scratch in over a decade, but I know the concept. Perhaps the greatest value of education is that it forces us to expand our usable neuronal footprint. It helps our brain recruit neurons to solve problems. A lot of our neurons just sit there waiting to be used for something. Higher education exercises those neurons and makes them easier to put to "productive" use later on. Another of the motivators for higher ed, I think, are that, "Well... I got a degree, so because I want to keep them valuable, I have to select from those who agree with me." We spent a lot of money getting degrees, so we want to believe they are worth something. The dichotomy though, that higher education is worth something or it isn't, is a false one. How do you measure the value of education? ROI? Personal fulfillment? Opened or closed doors?