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> These scientists don't work for NASA, most of them work for private institutes and some are based in Europe, ... Yes. Also Canada. > ... the work is entitle
by ggchappell 13y ago
> These scientists don't work for NASA, most of them work for private institutes and some are based in Europe, ...
Yes. Also Canada.
> ... the work is entitled to be copyrighted, ...
You're heading in the right direction here, but copyright does not work quite that way in the modern world. No one copyrights (verb) things anymore. Rather, copyright exists in most works upon their creation. So, yes, these are copyrighted works. (And so is your HN comment, by the way.)
> ... and basically you're stealing it and giving it away for free.
The scientists already gave it away to the journal for free. Journals, which provide nothing in the modern world except prestige, now hold the copyright and charge for access. No one is stealing anything, since everyone who had a copy before still has a copy. Yes, the papers are now being given away free to the public, probably against the wishes of the copyright holder (the journal).
> But these scientists didn't do anything wrong by publishing THEIR works (not Public Domain works) behind a pay wall.
Close. The scientists assigned the copyright to the journal, for no payment (but for the prestige of it). The journal is the one publishing behind a paywall, and the journal is the one getting any money collected.
Now, to the real point: "wrong" is not the same as "illegal". Yes, the journal holds the copyright to the paper, and it is legally entitled to charge for access. But what about the moral issue? I funded this work. Me. My taxes paid for it. If you are a U.S. taxpayer, then you paid for it, too. And yet now I'm supposed to pay to see it? There's a problem there.
This would be illegal[1] if these guys were medical researchers funded by the NIH, which has a policy that publications coming out of projects they fund must be freely accessible.[2] It is not illegal here; I think it should be.
And one more thing that many people don't catch: the researchers would probably love to have their papers more accessible. They are not sending papers to pay-walled journals because they like limited access. They are doing it because these are the journals that give them prestigious publications. The journals can trade on their prestige to enforce conditions on the researchers, like limited access. No one likes this except the journals. If NASA made a policy that papers from their projects must be made freely available, then the journals would either have to allow it, or else stop publishing all NASA-based works. Experience strongly suggests that they would do the former.
[EDIT--One more quick note before the editing period closes: It appears the author of the post might not be clear on the distinction between researchers working on NASA projects and researchers doing projects using data that NASA has made available for anyone to use. I am primarily addressing the former situation here. However, what I said about the journals being the only ones with any interest in limited access, applies to academic researchers in general.]
[1] Or maybe not quite illegal, but rather against regulations. Almost but not quite the same thing.
[2] http://publicaccess.nih.gov/ http://publicaccess.nih.gov/
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jonnydark 13y agoIt's not just prestige though, it's also legitimacy. Scientific journals have formal peer review and it is this process that is supposed to ensure that papers that get published aren't totally spurious. One might argue that NASA could be exempt from this process given its own reputation and level of accountability, but submitting articles to journals for peer review and publication is standard scientific practice. The paywall is arguably just for business though, a lot of papers get put up on sites like arxiv pre-publication anyway. I don't see much in the argument from the view of the taxpayer though. In the UK a lot of public funding goes in to research and the papers are largely behind paywalls - Graphene research for example. Now, if we had government subsidized peer review journals - I could definitely get behind that.
- tfgg 13y agoAll (afaik) UK research councils now have an Open Access mandate. It's a bit of a mess, though, since they keep changing how/who's going to pay for it, and what level of Open Access they mandate. Practically, for physicists, this just means uploading your paper to arXiv. Open Access is a more subtle economic argument than I think many people here are admitting, and you have to recognise the value-added that journals provide. There are experiments out there (e.g. post-publication peer review, free-floating editorial boards) trying to challenge the journal model, but I'm not going to presuppose that they're going to be more successful than pay-for OA journals.
- betterunix 13y ago"Scientific journals have formal peer review and it is this process that is supposed to ensure that papers that get published aren't totally spurious" Considering the fact that peer review is done by volunteers, I think this a pretty weak argument. At best you could argue that the publishers are organizing the review process, but even that is suspect -- scientists organize themselves pretty well. Peer review is orthogonal to copyright issues. Journal publishers serve almost no purpose in the modern world, and the copyrights they hold on scientific articles are doing more to prevent the dissemination of knowledge than to promote scientific research.