10 ms·

20% LOL! If only it were that low. I used to be a reputation management company, at one time we were responsible for 10% of the reviews in Silicon Valley. There

by drakaal 13y ago

20% LOL! If only it were that low. I used to be a reputation management company, at one time we were responsible for 10% of the reviews in Silicon Valley. There were metro's where we were about 80% of the reviews. When you think that the majority of companies have less than 10 reviews, and most owners can't resist doing a review, and having a friend do a review you are at 20% really fast. When you combine that with organizations like Blackwaterops.com (my old company) that used to do 1000s of reviews a day. 20% is really low, and wrong.

Uhhrrr 13y ago
Yeah, from the linked paper it looks like 20% is only the percentage of fakes that are statistically obvious.
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  I know that most people just look at the stars and make a decision. Other people read the good reviews and determine to make their decision from that. I read the bad reviews. 1 to 3 star reviews. I'd rather go to a place with a bifrication of bad and good reviews where the bad reviews are stuff I don't care about... My theory is that if a place sucks it will definitely have bad reviews. A place that is great will still have a few, but they will be over stupid stuff (i.e. I expected something different etc.)
  - ledge 13y ago
    There's no reason that a rival company couldn't fake negative reviews though. I'm sure it's common already.
    - drakaal 13y ago
      They do. Storage Facilities more than restaurants.
    - AJ007 13y ago
      Visually looking at the ratings curve can be a good indicator. Its the reviewers who need to be reviewed. Or, in a true social sense trusted reviewers should be followed and the rest ignored.
      - woebtz 13y ago
        When my friend's mother opened her restaurant in Koreatown, they received, amongst other welcome-to-the-neighborhoods: phantom Yelp reviews (describing tickets and events that never occurred) and a string of big table reservations (no shows). One such "review" complaining about a rat infestation was written by a then Yelp Elite member rather than an obvious sockpuppet. Who can you trust when even trust is gamed?
      - dsuth 13y ago
        What happens when a trusted reviewer gets recognised as such, and starts getting offers to do faked reviews for cash? This is a classic example in other mediums, eg. radio. Trust is a double-edged sword.
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    I read the bad reviews and the reasons for the negatives. If they add up, I'll take note. If they don't, I'll presume a fake. The failure of review services (Amazon, Yelp, and others) to police their reviews adequately really hurts these services. Otherwise they're little more than a yellow pages or directory.
fotbr 13y ago
Just out of curiosity, do those "reputation management" companies realize that in serving their clients by making fake reviews, they help destroy end-consumer trust? In many ways, it's the old SEO argument all over again - gaming a system to increase ratings eventually erodes trust in that system, making those increased ratings less valuable. At the same time, refusing to game the system means your business loses potential eyeballs/customers/etc, so one is left with the old rock vs hard place situation.
- drakaal 13y ago
  I don't do reputation management anymore. Now I build tools to do real reputation analysis, and fight the very things I used to do. I'm like Darth Vader in the last few moments of his life... Only I plan to live a long while. At Stremor.com we have technology that "breaks" SEO so we have better search results at http://www.samuru.com http://www.samuru.com than you would have using link authority. We have tech that can detect writing styles to tell that 6 reviews all came from the same person. We can do this for things like YELP or Amazon product reviews. We also do this to detect web content that was a Paid Review.
  - flanbiscuit 13y ago
    so can I pass Samuru a link to a particular Amazon product and it'll tell me how many of the reviews have a similar writing style therefore possibly being fake?
    - drakaal 13y ago
      We don't expose that as an API in that way. We are rolling out features, but I am not sure flagging reviews as fake will be something we make "public" instead we'd license that to a company like amazon. Otherwise on the small percentage we get wrong we might have some sort of liability.
    - fotbr 13y ago
      That would be an interesting service to provide. More data points for companies (x people were interested enough to check reviews with us) and end-consumers get a better feeling for the reviews. I'm not sure how you'd turn a profit with it, unless the data points for companies prove valuable enough. I also don't know how you'd keep from turning such a service into yet another system to be gamed.
baddox 13y ago
I wouldn't consider the owner's friend's review to be "fake." As for the owner him/herself, that might feel a bit unethical, but I still wouldn't call it "fake."
- smtddr 13y ago
  > I wouldn't consider the owner's friend's review to be "fake." I would. If Obama wrote a book and his childhood friend reviewed it on Amazon, I would discount that review. Or at least consider it highly suspect.
  - baddox 13y ago
    Can you articulate exactly why you wouldn't value that review? I would only consider a review "fake" and discount it if I thought the reviewer hadn't actually experienced the item being reviewed, or was externally incentivized (e.g. paid) to compose the review. Merely discounting a review for being "biased" doesn't seem wise to me. Presumably, the childhood friend of Obama actually did enjoy the book, and the friend of the restaurant owner probably does enjoy the restaurant, even if those preferences are influenced by their relationship with the item owner/producer.
    - smtddr 13y ago
      > Merely discounting a review for being "biased" doesn't seem wise to me. To me, fake and biased are not too far apart considering the context that I expect reviews on books, restaurants, etc. to come from random people who don't have any particular reason to like or dislike the product outside of the quality of the product itself. I believe friends & family are too close to the product to give a review without external-factors influencing. It's true that the friend could have truly enjoyed the product, but I still think the chances that their review was influenced by their friendship is high enough to make the review suspect.
      - baddox 13y ago
        > I expect reviews on books, restaurants, etc. to come from random people who don't have any particular reason to like or dislike the product outside of the quality of the product itself. The problem with that expectation is that voluntary reviews already self-select for people willing to write reviews, which will almost certainly introduce strong biases.
mathattack 13y ago
To me what this means is you can't trust a positive signal, but you still can trust a negative one. If it's really that bad, then they're clearly not on the ball.
- mturmon 13y ago
  You cannot trust the negative signals because they are gamed by competitors.
- drakaal 13y ago
  There was as much if not more negative gaming as positive. The best way to hurt a competing self storage services is to post a review that mentions their rat problem. Just an example.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way - thanks!
- genwin 13y ago
  When using Trip Advisor I skip over reviews where the reviewer has only 1 review. I assume they are written by competitors. A hotel could have many pages of favorable reviews, yet the reviewer with only 1 review under his/her belt will likely report something disgusting like bed bugs or blood stains.
  - andrewaylett 13y ago
    Conversely, a hotel probably has more than one competitor so if they're posting negative reviews they may well review all of them. Someone who has a particularly bad (or good) experience with a hotel may well not have signed up before but could feel compelled to do so for that experience. Note that I'm not speaking from experience here, just playing devil's advocate a bit :).
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  In addition to gaming competitors, there are unreasonable customers who can't be trusted. So, technically, the review is from an actual customer, but still cannot be relied upon. And, the problem is compounded by the fact that more people are apt to write a review if they have a negative experience. This can really skew the results in a negative direction. The whole paradigm of reviews as they are currently implemented is just plain broken.
gzervas 13y ago
We'd love to incorporate your data in our analysis if you are willing to share.
- drakaal 13y ago
  I'm Brandon at Stremor com if you want to drop me a message.
gcb0 13y ago
From first hand experience in 5 mechanic shops in socal, i can say that 100% of the reviews are fake. On all 5 shops i heard the same thing. "If you give us 5 star on yelp i can give you $100 (3. 2 others offered 50) check back after your check/CC pass through"

by drakaal 13y ago

Uhhrrr 13y ago

Yeah, from the linked paper it looks like 20% is only the percentage of fakes that are statistically obvious.

wtvanhest 13y ago
I know that most people just look at the stars and make a decision. Other people read the good reviews and determine to make their decision from that. I read the bad reviews. 1 to 3 star reviews. I'd rather go to a place with a bifrication of bad and good reviews where the bad reviews are stuff I don't care about... My theory is that if a place sucks it will definitely have bad reviews. A place that is great will still have a few, but they will be over stupid stuff (i.e. I expected something different etc.)
- ledge 13y ago
  There's no reason that a rival company couldn't fake negative reviews though. I'm sure it's common already.
  - drakaal 13y ago
    They do. Storage Facilities more than restaurants.
  - AJ007 13y ago
    Visually looking at the ratings curve can be a good indicator. Its the reviewers who need to be reviewed. Or, in a true social sense trusted reviewers should be followed and the rest ignored.
    - woebtz 13y ago
      When my friend's mother opened her restaurant in Koreatown, they received, amongst other welcome-to-the-neighborhoods: phantom Yelp reviews (describing tickets and events that never occurred) and a string of big table reservations (no shows). One such "review" complaining about a rat infestation was written by a then Yelp Elite member rather than an obvious sockpuppet. Who can you trust when even trust is gamed?
    - dsuth 13y ago
      What happens when a trusted reviewer gets recognised as such, and starts getting offers to do faked reviews for cash? This is a classic example in other mediums, eg. radio. Trust is a double-edged sword.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  I read the bad reviews and the reasons for the negatives. If they add up, I'll take note. If they don't, I'll presume a fake. The failure of review services (Amazon, Yelp, and others) to police their reviews adequately really hurts these services. Otherwise they're little more than a yellow pages or directory.

fotbr 13y ago

Just out of curiosity, do those "reputation management" companies realize that in serving their clients by making fake reviews, they help destroy end-consumer trust? In many ways, it's the old SEO argument all over again - gaming a system to increase ratings eventually erodes trust in that system, making those increased ratings less valuable. At the same time, refusing to game the system means your business loses potential eyeballs/customers/etc, so one is left with the old rock vs hard place situation.

drakaal 13y ago
I don't do reputation management anymore. Now I build tools to do real reputation analysis, and fight the very things I used to do. I'm like Darth Vader in the last few moments of his life... Only I plan to live a long while. At Stremor.com we have technology that "breaks" SEO so we have better search results at http://www.samuru.com http://www.samuru.com than you would have using link authority. We have tech that can detect writing styles to tell that 6 reviews all came from the same person. We can do this for things like YELP or Amazon product reviews. We also do this to detect web content that was a Paid Review.
- flanbiscuit 13y ago
  so can I pass Samuru a link to a particular Amazon product and it'll tell me how many of the reviews have a similar writing style therefore possibly being fake?
  - drakaal 13y ago
    We don't expose that as an API in that way. We are rolling out features, but I am not sure flagging reviews as fake will be something we make "public" instead we'd license that to a company like amazon. Otherwise on the small percentage we get wrong we might have some sort of liability.
  - fotbr 13y ago
    That would be an interesting service to provide. More data points for companies (x people were interested enough to check reviews with us) and end-consumers get a better feeling for the reviews. I'm not sure how you'd turn a profit with it, unless the data points for companies prove valuable enough. I also don't know how you'd keep from turning such a service into yet another system to be gamed.

baddox 13y ago

I wouldn't consider the owner's friend's review to be "fake." As for the owner him/herself, that might feel a bit unethical, but I still wouldn't call it "fake."

smtddr 13y ago
> I wouldn't consider the owner's friend's review to be "fake." I would. If Obama wrote a book and his childhood friend reviewed it on Amazon, I would discount that review. Or at least consider it highly suspect.
- baddox 13y ago
  Can you articulate exactly why you wouldn't value that review? I would only consider a review "fake" and discount it if I thought the reviewer hadn't actually experienced the item being reviewed, or was externally incentivized (e.g. paid) to compose the review. Merely discounting a review for being "biased" doesn't seem wise to me. Presumably, the childhood friend of Obama actually did enjoy the book, and the friend of the restaurant owner probably does enjoy the restaurant, even if those preferences are influenced by their relationship with the item owner/producer.
  - smtddr 13y ago
    > Merely discounting a review for being "biased" doesn't seem wise to me. To me, fake and biased are not too far apart considering the context that I expect reviews on books, restaurants, etc. to come from random people who don't have any particular reason to like or dislike the product outside of the quality of the product itself. I believe friends & family are too close to the product to give a review without external-factors influencing. It's true that the friend could have truly enjoyed the product, but I still think the chances that their review was influenced by their friendship is high enough to make the review suspect.
    - baddox 13y ago
      > I expect reviews on books, restaurants, etc. to come from random people who don't have any particular reason to like or dislike the product outside of the quality of the product itself. The problem with that expectation is that voluntary reviews already self-select for people willing to write reviews, which will almost certainly introduce strong biases.

mathattack 13y ago

To me what this means is you can't trust a positive signal, but you still can trust a negative one. If it's really that bad, then they're clearly not on the ball.

mturmon 13y ago
You cannot trust the negative signals because they are gamed by competitors.
drakaal 13y ago
There was as much if not more negative gaming as positive. The best way to hurt a competing self storage services is to post a review that mentions their rat problem. Just an example.
- mathattack 13y ago
  Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way - thanks!
genwin 13y ago
When using Trip Advisor I skip over reviews where the reviewer has only 1 review. I assume they are written by competitors. A hotel could have many pages of favorable reviews, yet the reviewer with only 1 review under his/her belt will likely report something disgusting like bed bugs or blood stains.
- andrewaylett 13y ago
  Conversely, a hotel probably has more than one competitor so if they're posting negative reviews they may well review all of them. Someone who has a particularly bad (or good) experience with a hotel may well not have signed up before but could feel compelled to do so for that experience. Note that I'm not speaking from experience here, just playing devil's advocate a bit :).
unclebucknasty 13y ago
In addition to gaming competitors, there are unreasonable customers who can't be trusted. So, technically, the review is from an actual customer, but still cannot be relied upon. And, the problem is compounded by the fact that more people are apt to write a review if they have a negative experience. This can really skew the results in a negative direction. The whole paradigm of reviews as they are currently implemented is just plain broken.

gzervas 13y ago

We'd love to incorporate your data in our analysis if you are willing to share.

drakaal 13y ago
I'm Brandon at Stremor com if you want to drop me a message.

gcb0 13y ago

From first hand experience in 5 mechanic shops in socal, i can say that 100% of the reviews are fake. On all 5 shops i heard the same thing. "If you give us 5 star on yelp i can give you $100 (3. 2 others offered 50) check back after your check/CC pass through"