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you can't pay for childcare Having children is a choice. There are no storks dropping babies into random homes. True, people do make bad choices for a variety

you can't pay for childcare Having children is a choice. There are no storks dropping babies into random homes. True, people do make bad choices for a variety of reasons (teen pregnancy, for example), but nearly every parent, including teens, have some idea that children are a major responsibility that require a considerable amount of care, attention and financial resources from their parents. This is not simply a matter of social/economic conditions or of genes. I remember being a teenager not all that long ago (I'm 32 now). The girls that got pregnant all knew better - I remember sitting through the same lectures in class that they did - but they made their choices. So if it's not social conditions or genes, what is it? I really think it boils down to ideas, which are accessible to anyone and everyone: 1) Life is for keeps. You only get one go at it, and that's it! 2) Your own life matters most, and it is possible to make something of it, if you try. 3) What's good for you does not come at the expense of other people. 4) How can you make your mark on the world if you're just starting out and all of your spare time is spent changing diapers? --- Your ideas are not determined by your social/economic conditions.^ If the ideas people held were simply a matter of economic conditions, no one would ever rise out of poverty. (I'd supply some names, but it's better if you just do a Google search for "poor people who became rich.") ^Nor are they determined by your genes - I won't delve into this because I'm assuming that this point is obvious.

skunkworks 13y ago
It's not just a choice in a vacuum, there are other things that contribute significantly to you making right and wrong choices, and specifically when it comes to making good life choices, a lot of those decisions are influenced negatively by poverty.
- growupkids 13y ago
  Citation please. No but Seriously. This is just a series of platitudes: decisions are influenced negatively by poverty? Yes, and some are influenced positively by poverty, as in "this sucks and I don't want to be hungry anymore". I know it motivated me to see my parents struggle, to eat government cheese, and to move all the time because of the need for new work for my dad. Experience is a great teacher, and it motivated me to not make the same mistakes my parents made. Its not a zero sum game. Even being poor isn't poor anymore. When I was little, and we were poor, dirt poor in the backwoods of Tenessee we didn't have a phone, we had one kerosene heater, we lived on a dirt road, no health care, and we got our milk from the neighbors cow ( real milk kids is gross ). Compare that with the average "poor" person today, cell phone, government health insurance, clean safe water to drink, a government provided debit card to go shopping ( no govt cheese for them), paved roads! Yep, life's tough. They'll never get out of poverty. Maybe you're right. If it's too nice, why bother. I definitely didn't want to be backwoods poor, it positively influenced my decisions. I ain't poor no more.
  - skunkworks 13y ago
    You're welcome to dismiss my argument as a series of platitudes, but you should also agree to allow me to dismiss your story as a platitude, about how you were so determined not to be poor that it drove you to succeed. I'm not actually dismissing your story -- I am in no position to judge fairly -- but I'm trying to point out that the fundamental attribution bias and the closely related actor-observer bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_bias) are both powerful. What if your personality type made it such that you had a high likelihood of success whether you were rich or poor? Finally, with all this talk about "choice", let me go ahead and throw out a controversial statement: we have a lot less free will than we want to believe we do.
kbenson 13y ago
Is this some performance piece about entitlement based on the source article? I remember being a teenager not all that long ago (I'm 32 now). The girls that got pregnant all knew better - I remember sitting through the same lectures in class that they did - but they made their choices. And obviously you were in the same situations they were, and had the same upbringing, so the comparison is valid? It's nice that you can rationalize your current situation as stemming entirely from all the correct choices you've made, but have you considered that you are far from an unbiased source in such a rationalization? The truth is that people are not rational actors. Adolescents are even less so. To state that all the girls in your age group knew better when they got pregnant does not immediately point towards them having the wrong goals (or ideas, as you term them), but towards a failure in your reasoning (or at least a failure of imagination).
- wyager 13y ago
  >The truth is that people are not rational actors. Adolescents are even less so. And yet, any remotely intelligent person living in a remotely modern country is completely capable of not getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant, should they choose not to. Let's not completely absolve people of blame just because they're poor/young/whatever. Everyone is capable of autonomy.
  - psb217 13y ago
    "Everyone is capable of autonomy." Thank you for so concisely and cogently resolving what may well have been philosophy's longest-standing and most ontologically profound line of inquiry. I'm confident that one day I will look back and consider myself blessed for having had the opportunity to effectively witness such an historic event first hand.
    - mentat 13y ago
      I don't usually endorse snark, but I think a large set of the new HN don't have any appreciation for the history of thought about a lot of hard problems. It's part of the new "I've got an opinion so it must be one that has value (because I have value)." It's true, you do have value, but that does not make your opinion informed.
Iftheshoefits 13y ago
Frequently "poor people who became rich" stories leave out important details (e.g. the definition of 'poor' is pretty loose, an extraordinary overlap of luck and timing, etc.). That isn't to discount the actual "poor became rich" stories that are completely 'legitimate.' They exist. But pointing them out as examples to diminish the importance of socioeconomic conditions impact on a person's choices is like holding up any statistical outlier as proof that the statistics are 'wrong.'
evanlivingston 13y ago
You make a few points which stand on pretty dubious ground. "Your own life matters most" - In what sense? More than that of others? "What's good for you does not come at the expense of other people." - Do you have evidence for this? Does stealing, which might in some moment be good for a person, not come at the expense of another? "How can you make your mark on the world" - Doesn't this presuppose that 'making a mark in the world' is a more 'important' cause than changing diapers? "If the ideas people held were simply a matter of economic conditions, no one would ever rise out of poverty." - Id be interested to see some statistics of the frequency with which people escape poverty. I have a feeling the numbers are fairly low.
- maxharris 13y ago
  "Your own life matters most" - In what sense? More than that of others? You know what? This is a sloppy formulation. But see the point immediately below, because I think it deals with most of the trouble you're having with what I'm saying. "What's good for you does not come at the expense of other people." - Do you have evidence for this? Does stealing, which might in some moment be good for a person, not come at the expense of another? Was stealing good for Bernie Madoff? Look at the evidence. He ended up in jail, penniless, and what's left of his family will not speak to him. His son committed suicide. Even before he was caught, his life was a living hell - he admitted as much in an interview. "How can you make your mark on the world" - Doesn't this presuppose that 'making a mark in the world' is a more 'important' cause than changing diapers? Things are important or unimportant only in relation to particular lives, and everyone has unique, specific goals. For example, if my goal is to become a world-class concert pianist, fathering children before I was thirty would definitely make the more important (again, to me) goal impossible to achieve. "If the ideas people held were simply a matter of economic conditions, no one would ever rise out of poverty." - Id be interested to see some statistics of the frequency with which people escape poverty. I have a feeling the numbers are fairly low. Statistics are only useful when you are ignorant of a specific phenomenon, and have no way to make the necessary observations yourself. What matters is specific, actual people, not some aggregate average that describes nothing in particular and no one specifically. The fact that some people rise from poverty is all that is needed to prove that it is possible. One last point occurred to me. People rose out of incredible poverty en masse over the last 150 years, following the industrial revolution. in the 1860s, even the wealthiest businessman could not fly across the country in a few hours, call people around the world, get treatment for serious illnesses (e.g., valve replacement heart surgery), use computers, etc. A lot of people look at poverty from the perspective of relative differences, but I'm just happy to be alive in a time and in a place where there is so much available, in absolute terms (because that's the thing that actually makes a difference in my standard of living).
chrischen 13y ago
Yes but if you had a shitty childhood or life, you're only hope may be to have children and give them better opportunities than you've had.

skunkworks 13y ago

It's not just a choice in a vacuum, there are other things that contribute significantly to you making right and wrong choices, and specifically when it comes to making good life choices, a lot of those decisions are influenced negatively by poverty.

growupkids 13y ago
Citation please. No but Seriously. This is just a series of platitudes: decisions are influenced negatively by poverty? Yes, and some are influenced positively by poverty, as in "this sucks and I don't want to be hungry anymore". I know it motivated me to see my parents struggle, to eat government cheese, and to move all the time because of the need for new work for my dad. Experience is a great teacher, and it motivated me to not make the same mistakes my parents made. Its not a zero sum game. Even being poor isn't poor anymore. When I was little, and we were poor, dirt poor in the backwoods of Tenessee we didn't have a phone, we had one kerosene heater, we lived on a dirt road, no health care, and we got our milk from the neighbors cow ( real milk kids is gross ). Compare that with the average "poor" person today, cell phone, government health insurance, clean safe water to drink, a government provided debit card to go shopping ( no govt cheese for them), paved roads! Yep, life's tough. They'll never get out of poverty. Maybe you're right. If it's too nice, why bother. I definitely didn't want to be backwoods poor, it positively influenced my decisions. I ain't poor no more.
- skunkworks 13y ago
  You're welcome to dismiss my argument as a series of platitudes, but you should also agree to allow me to dismiss your story as a platitude, about how you were so determined not to be poor that it drove you to succeed. I'm not actually dismissing your story -- I am in no position to judge fairly -- but I'm trying to point out that the fundamental attribution bias and the closely related actor-observer bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_bias) are both powerful. What if your personality type made it such that you had a high likelihood of success whether you were rich or poor? Finally, with all this talk about "choice", let me go ahead and throw out a controversial statement: we have a lot less free will than we want to believe we do.

kbenson 13y ago

Is this some performance piece about entitlement based on the source article? I remember being a teenager not all that long ago (I'm 32 now). The girls that got pregnant all knew better - I remember sitting through the same lectures in class that they did - but they made their choices. And obviously you were in the same situations they were, and had the same upbringing, so the comparison is valid? It's nice that you can rationalize your current situation as stemming entirely from all the correct choices you've made, but have you considered that you are far from an unbiased source in such a rationalization? The truth is that people are not rational actors. Adolescents are even less so. To state that all the girls in your age group knew better when they got pregnant does not immediately point towards them having the wrong goals (or ideas, as you term them), but towards a failure in your reasoning (or at least a failure of imagination).

wyager 13y ago
>The truth is that people are not rational actors. Adolescents are even less so. And yet, any remotely intelligent person living in a remotely modern country is completely capable of not getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant, should they choose not to. Let's not completely absolve people of blame just because they're poor/young/whatever. Everyone is capable of autonomy.
- psb217 13y ago
  "Everyone is capable of autonomy." Thank you for so concisely and cogently resolving what may well have been philosophy's longest-standing and most ontologically profound line of inquiry. I'm confident that one day I will look back and consider myself blessed for having had the opportunity to effectively witness such an historic event first hand.
  - mentat 13y ago
    I don't usually endorse snark, but I think a large set of the new HN don't have any appreciation for the history of thought about a lot of hard problems. It's part of the new "I've got an opinion so it must be one that has value (because I have value)." It's true, you do have value, but that does not make your opinion informed.

Iftheshoefits 13y ago

Frequently "poor people who became rich" stories leave out important details (e.g. the definition of 'poor' is pretty loose, an extraordinary overlap of luck and timing, etc.). That isn't to discount the actual "poor became rich" stories that are completely 'legitimate.' They exist. But pointing them out as examples to diminish the importance of socioeconomic conditions impact on a person's choices is like holding up any statistical outlier as proof that the statistics are 'wrong.'

evanlivingston 13y ago

You make a few points which stand on pretty dubious ground. "Your own life matters most" - In what sense? More than that of others? "What's good for you does not come at the expense of other people." - Do you have evidence for this? Does stealing, which might in some moment be good for a person, not come at the expense of another? "How can you make your mark on the world" - Doesn't this presuppose that 'making a mark in the world' is a more 'important' cause than changing diapers? "If the ideas people held were simply a matter of economic conditions, no one would ever rise out of poverty." - Id be interested to see some statistics of the frequency with which people escape poverty. I have a feeling the numbers are fairly low.

maxharris 13y ago
"Your own life matters most" - In what sense? More than that of others? You know what? This is a sloppy formulation. But see the point immediately below, because I think it deals with most of the trouble you're having with what I'm saying. "What's good for you does not come at the expense of other people." - Do you have evidence for this? Does stealing, which might in some moment be good for a person, not come at the expense of another? Was stealing good for Bernie Madoff? Look at the evidence. He ended up in jail, penniless, and what's left of his family will not speak to him. His son committed suicide. Even before he was caught, his life was a living hell - he admitted as much in an interview. "How can you make your mark on the world" - Doesn't this presuppose that 'making a mark in the world' is a more 'important' cause than changing diapers? Things are important or unimportant only in relation to particular lives, and everyone has unique, specific goals. For example, if my goal is to become a world-class concert pianist, fathering children before I was thirty would definitely make the more important (again, to me) goal impossible to achieve. "If the ideas people held were simply a matter of economic conditions, no one would ever rise out of poverty." - Id be interested to see some statistics of the frequency with which people escape poverty. I have a feeling the numbers are fairly low. Statistics are only useful when you are ignorant of a specific phenomenon, and have no way to make the necessary observations yourself. What matters is specific, actual people, not some aggregate average that describes nothing in particular and no one specifically. The fact that some people rise from poverty is all that is needed to prove that it is possible. One last point occurred to me. People rose out of incredible poverty en masse over the last 150 years, following the industrial revolution. in the 1860s, even the wealthiest businessman could not fly across the country in a few hours, call people around the world, get treatment for serious illnesses (e.g., valve replacement heart surgery), use computers, etc. A lot of people look at poverty from the perspective of relative differences, but I'm just happy to be alive in a time and in a place where there is so much available, in absolute terms (because that's the thing that actually makes a difference in my standard of living).

chrischen 13y ago

Yes but if you had a shitty childhood or life, you're only hope may be to have children and give them better opportunities than you've had.