14 ms·

At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead

248 points by anu_gupta 13y ago

ballard 13y ago
This story make me sad for the human species, it sounds criminal. On the upside, with tech of course: Is there any existing app for labor conditions reporting? If potential employees had a slight opportunity to easily research conditions, they might choose another company with a better record. This would have the potential to drive disreputable shops out of business and promote those that care a bit more about basic human rights. It would be a daunting education and development task, but one that would be meaningful.
- sokoloff 13y ago
  This is an environment where people borrow $1000 at 36% interest to get placed in a job overseas. In such an environment, I don't know there's a lot of practical room for, "Nah, I don't want that one; what else you got?!"
  - ballard 13y ago
    Predatory lending on top of indentured servitude: dual slavery of the body and poverty. I'm sure there are much worse and much better companies than what is reported regarding un/semi-skilled labor workforce vendors. The former should not be allowed to survive. Would be a cool project if someone went undercover themselves to make a docu on the living and work conditions of these industrial sites to expose this further.
dm8 13y ago
Lot of Indians also work in these countries due to poverty reasons. I feel privileged to be born in a relatively wealthy and educated family in India. If it was not the case may be I would have one of the migrant workers like them. If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money. Few million dollars will hardly going to move needle for them. I smell corruption.
- ameen 13y ago
  Corruption by the middle-men, the worst part is fellow Indians/Nepalis run such recruitment rackets and fake certificates and stuff. Even if those countries wanted to do better, these middle-men would gobble up the benefits and pass the hardwork to uneducated/naive migrant workers.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    Here's a new thought: Enforce the law.
  - enupten 13y ago
    Apparently, that is also true of farmers in India. If only the government can bring in better policies to improve logistics; oh how poverty corrodes the soul of a society.
  - zizee 13y ago
    The countries could enforce/create laws and protect these people. To suggest that they have no power in the situation laughable. They cannot be absolved of their responsibility for this issue.
  - cabalamat 13y ago
    > uneducated/naive migrant workers I suspect that, due to the internet, prospective migrant works are a good deal less naive than they used to be. Which makes me wonder if Nepalese will still be prepared to work there in future.
    - dm8 13y ago
      They are well aware of working conditions. I'm sure some migrant workers might be returning to Nepal and this type of information spreads quickly within rural communities. And Nepalese people will still work for them. Poverty makes people do all sorts of things. And that includes taking risks with your own life.
- vellum 13y ago
  If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money Racism. There's a certain pecking order in the Gulf: 1.) Locals, 2.) Other Gulf nationals, 3.) Whites (Western), 4.) Non-white professionals (Western) 5.) Other Arabs (professionals), 5.) South Asian professionals, 6.) Working class (busboys/waiters/etc.), 7.) Day laborers (mostly South Asian). If you see a certain race/class as subhuman, why would you provide them with good working conditions?
enupten 13y ago
Yes, this is awful, but what more can you expect from the Middle East? On a more political note, did Al Jazeera, report on this ?
- ucha 13y ago
  Yes, they did. A quick search turns this: http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/06/201261472812737158.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/06/2012... http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/06/201261264715371679.html http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/06/2012612647... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/201327142630923249.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/20132714263...
  - enupten 13y ago
    Wow, that's very nice; thank you for making up for my laziness.
  - sammyo 13y ago
    I do wonder if these stories are distributed to the Arabic editions.
- zizee 13y ago
  You should not paint all countries in the Middle East with the same brush.
  - camus 13y ago
    Yeah there are great beaches in Dubai... and a lot of slaves building fancy hotels too, see , that's not the same.
    - Ecio78 13y ago
      relevant article: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-har...
dajohnson89 13y ago
Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?
- kps 13y ago
  The Guardian is Britain's third biggest newspaper, and the slavery story is on the front page. Close enough?
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Discussion on the main World Cup Slaves story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6446077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6446077
  - 616c 13y ago
    The article is currently front page [0] on Doha News [1], which many expats read daily in their office. So, yes, it is front page as far as I concerned. Few people who live around this area would read state-run newspapers. [0] http://dohanews.co/post/62313447527/guardian-nepali-workers-in-qatar-being-used-as-slave http://dohanews.co/post/62313447527/guardian-nepali-workers-... [1] http://dohanews.co http://dohanews.co
  - DharmaPolice 13y ago
    What metric are you using for third biggest? The national figures I've seen put the Guardian in a pretty lowly 10th place in terms of circulation. Even if you exclude most of the popular papers (i.e. tabloids) and look only at broadsheets then the Guardian is still only 4th (of 5). The Guardian certainly punches above it's weight through its internet site the paper itself is nowhere near as big as the other papers. Source: http://www.theguardian.com/media/table/2013/jul/15/abcs-national-newspapers http://www.theguardian.com/media/table/2013/jul/15/abcs-nati...
- waps 13y ago
  Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery : Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is part of a particular religion. And the fact that if that religion entrenches itself in a society, it has a very strong tendency to bring slavery back. (Fun fact : know what the arabic word for slave is ? "Abed". Literally it means "black". "Black gold", when it was a popular term in the 19th and 20th centuries, referred to slaves, not oil.
joonix 13y ago
See my post in the other thread about living in Qatar. The exit visa is a system that legally enables indentured servitude. Any country that has this system (pretty much just Islamic mideast countries) should be shunned by the US and the UN (won't happen of course given the US has a couple of bases in Qatar and BP has a huge investment there).
- vacri 13y ago
  Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.
  - camus 13y ago
    It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...
    - waps 13y ago
      Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g. purchasing slaves then freeing them). Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers, which lead to ...) Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun). So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism (ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and Christianity. Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical name for Islam) And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India, they're doing a good job fighting slavery though). As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the consequences of that. Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of stability.
camus 13y ago
There will be no justice for that kid. Nobody will be held accountable.
nikatwork 13y ago
Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview?
- jrmurad 13y ago
  | Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview? Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts. > He was 16 There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract. > arranging a fake passport stating he was 20 Fraud. > wages retained Who would sign a contract like this? It's most likely a violation. > deprived of the ID cards they need to move around freely without fear of arrest Seems like a failure of the State, to be arresting people who are allowed to be there. > demand their wages, a drastic step given that the authorities can simply expel them to penury If "the authorities" refers to the State, I'd say it's another failure of government, not the free market. > refusing to issue the exit permits they needed to return home Yet another failure of the State, if I'm reading that correctly as a restriction of the freedom of movement: a basic human right which brutal, anti-capitalist regimes are infamous for violating (e.g. Berlin Wall). Historically, people tend to flee from less free (market) countries to more free (market) countries. > the kafala system binds the worker to a single employer Is "kafala" a system of laws? This sounds like Directive 10-289 which Ayn Rand rails against in Atlas Shrugged: "All workers, wage earners, and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment"
  - nazgulnarsil 13y ago
    Don't forget the most important underlying issue: a "free market advocate" should not want to contract with contract breakers (fraud, force) for the most obvious reason. Visible differences have historically been used as a Schelling fence on this issue. "Oh you can do business with me despite the fact that I use force and fraud, I only use it against people with dark skin."
  - nikatwork 13y ago
    My point (and I am being serious) is that these worker abuses seem to be the result of a complete lack of government regulations surrounding the labor force. However you do raise a good point, in this situation the workers are not free to pick up and leave, which invalidates it as an argument against free market advocation. I concede the discussion to you good sir.
aptwebapps 13y ago
From another article on the topic by The Guardian [1] The British engineering company Halcrow, part of the CH2M Hill group, is a lead consultant on the Lusail project responsible for "infrastructure design and construction supervision". CH2M Hill was recently appointed the official programme management consultant to the supreme committee. It says it has a "zero tolerance policy for the use of forced labour and other human trafficking practices". Halcrow said: "Our supervision role of specific construction packages ensures adherence to site contract regulation for health, safety and environment. The terms of employment of a contractor's labour force is not under our direct purview." So they've got a zero tolerance policy, unless you're talking about the actions of their contractors which is just, like, totally out of their control, man. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves?CMP=twt_gu http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...
dm8 13y ago
On a side note, is there anyway we can donate money to his family. ~ $1500 with 36% interest is lot of money for his poor Nepalese family and I doubt they will be able to repay that debt. I guess they will have to work rest of their life just to repay money. I'd be up for donating some money to their family. How do I do it?
- polymatter 13y ago
  I'd also be interested. But I want strong verification that it hasn't just gone straight into a local officials next holiday fund.
- mcv 13y ago
  I'm really hoping they don't have to repay that debt. If it's illegal according to Nepalese law, then surely nobody can force them to pay up? If they will be forced to pay, that makes an already terrible and inhuman situation even worse.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Is buying people out of slavery a good idea, or does it just keep more people in slavery?
anigbrowl 13y ago
This is heartbreaking, but I'm having a hard time seeing the HN angle, except that there was another thread on the same subject earlier today. I suggest this is more suitable fare for Reddit.
- DanBC 13y ago
  While I say that anything can fit on HN I have a hard time with articles like this, because the threads are usually full of hateful idiots bickering about things they have little knowledge of. What have I learnt from the comments to this submission?
bsullivan01 13y ago
If CIA wanted Qatar's Royal family gone, they'd ship 50,000 AKs, pick a few leaders from each ethnic group and Viva La Revolucion! Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks
- DominikR 13y ago
  The moment these middle eastern countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen) are not useful to Western foreign policy anymore and therefore lose our support, they will probably disintegrate. You've got citizens that are a minority in their own country, and that are largely incompetent and incapable of running anything, because they never had to do any work. And then you have a majority of foreign workers that are largely treated like slaves, and probably not happy with that situation. I can't see who would support those regimes if they get into troubles Europe certainly wouldn't, politicians here already call those countries dictatorships (publicly) and noone want's to have any affiliation with them. Russia and China both already had their experiences with terrorism sponsored by those regimes, so I wouldn't expect any support from them either. I think that particularly Saudi Arabia already sees the writings on the wall and they are actively taking measures but it will be too late, too little.
neel980 13y ago
Seems to be the case across the surrounding region http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari...
mmariani 13y ago
""" ...Nepalese men and women leave their towns and villages for jobs overseas. More than 100,000 head to Qatar, where a booming construction industry and insatiable appetite for cheap labour has been fuelled by its successful bid to host the 2022 World Cup... """ Just like Rome's slaves built the Colosseum so that the upper classes could keep the masses entertained to keep exploiting them. We really have not learned shit in the past couple thousand years.
- kubiiii 13y ago
  The difference here is that the stadiums will likely stay empty during the world cup. They are litterally doing that for nothing.
known 13y ago
Sounds like http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million-strong-dalit-community-faces-discrimination-every-da/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million...
ppradhan 13y ago
I am from Nepal. This happens because of poverty and people need to make a living. Awareness is high among migrant workers about the conditions - given hundreds of thousands travel each year and news travels back. But hope of 200-500 USD per month makes people take risks and the exodus continues. Once there, dodgy contractors and employment agents take advantage when they can. The exit visa system really doesn't help either. Neither do unstable government, weak economy and low employment back home. It is an actual fact that in desperation, the poor migrant workers are made to work long hours in extreme heat (direct sunlight). At nighttime, close to the desert where many of these fetid labour quarters are get suddenly cold. Extreme variations in temperature and strenuous manual work is said to have contributed to all these heart attack deaths in young people - as young as 20. I'm not sure exactly because I'm not a medical professional - but the conditions are definitely not conducive to human survival. The way international community has taken notice with this article does help. Business communities and political interests might do their best to keep the blatant human/labour rights violation under wraps but spreading the news will make their task harder. People from countries with vested economic stakes in these gulf countries etc could do well to pressurise their governments to demand accountability. Work is what the workers want - but in humane conditions. Death should not be an acceptable condition of employment.
netcan 13y ago
This situation seems like an embodiment of several bad things that can be found everywhere, but all taken to the extreme. They add up to a slavery system. First of all, I think that slavery is a relative concept. The modern comparison archetype that most people know the most about is the American system of race based chattel slavery. But, there have been many many different systems all throughout history. All different. Slavery is something that exists on a difficult to define continuum. Many (most?) countries have laws for emoting foreigners. They usually have more limited rights compared to citizens. Deportation looms. Residency is tied to employment. The country is not run for them. When it's a Belgian professor teaching in Russia, it obviously isn't slavery. When it's this poor Nepali man in Qatar isn't. There just isn't a clear line between the two. Contracts? Consent? What do those mean when you have the power differences between a Qatari Sheik and an illiterate. Qatar is comparable in a lot of ways to ancient slave states. There are a small minority (2-5% depending on how you define it) of extremely privileged aristocracy, members of important families. Another 10% of Qatari citizens who make up most of the the professional class. The foreign professional class (10-15%) of mostly arabs and whites. They have fewer rights, but are materially well off. Then a vast underclass (50-60%) of poor foreigners with no rights and practical situations ranging from bad to awful. Work to death conditions. Sexual assault. Chattel-like system of employer-employee relations. Probably similar distributions to famous slave states like Sparta.
abup 13y ago
I am from Nepal. The irony in all this is that we Nepalese will keep flying the Qatar Airways. The Nepalese airlines, a state-owned corporation, used to have regular flights to many busy destinations like Frankfurt. But like with everything that has happened in Nepal for the last 10-15 years, this has gone downhill. Qatar bribed many Football Associations in FIFA to get this world cup bid. One of them was Nepal. The Nepalese FA's president is in good terms with the Qatari FA, and was apparently given nice kickbacks for voting in their favor.
projectramo 13y ago
Slavery in Qatar has nothing to do with religion. This is the equivalent of taking some example of modern day slavery (say the 20 million alleged http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-unidentified?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...) and then saying this is part of US history. Saying slavery is inherently Islamic is like saying slavery is inherently American. And then for proof, going over centuries of quotes about slaves, beatings of slaves, violence during desegregation and the whole entire ugly history of race relations. Anyone remotely well read knows this is absurd. That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control.
- dvmmh 13y ago
  "That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control." No. The fact that the local populace doesn't care at all and encourages it, means that it is a HUGELY systemic problem.
projectramo 13y ago
We have to end this now: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-unidentified?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...
bradleysmith 13y ago
Seems a dead horse at this point, but this was common-place in Saudi Arabia where I grew up. Migrant workers from Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the Phillipines (from memory) and elsewhere were notoriously mistreated. My mother worked at a TV & Radio broadcast station for a (...the) major oil company there (side job, father was in oil @ same company), and found out the janitorial staff in her building were going both unpaid and unfed during their workdays for months at a time. I remember helping her with food-drives to pull food from expat communities for them. It was well known to expat kids running around on-compound that 'gardeners' (generally bangladeshi and nepalese) were absolutely second-class citizens. These people were absolutely degraded at the hands of Saudi nationals and expats of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities (yes, westerners too). I've seen them yelled & cursed at, spit on, and beaten by company Security officers (generally al-Dossari Saudi's, but not always). The horror stories are literally countless. There seems to have been a lot of discussion in this thread as to the effect that religion has played as a cause of this treatment of migrant workers. I DO NOT know (nor believe) that Islam has a direct role to play, but I can say confidently that this is a reflection of culture. There is a general acceptance of inherent difference in levels of humanity that is tied to national (and tribal) identities in many Middle Eastern countries. I would wager that the majority of the population (at the time I was living there, demographics change fast, and there are a boatload of young people in KSA) would tell you that a Sri Lanken / Bangladeshi / Pakistani != a Brit / American / Frenchmen, etc., and not feel that bad about it. As I observed it, some of these people believed this as coldly as it is stated above, while a great many see it as a fact the whole world thinks this, but their culture/mindset is 'realistic' (shudders) or honest enough to admit it. I DO NOT believe this is simply a 'rich taking advantage of poor' scenario. In my experience, these people are mistreated far worse than necessary for profit, or probably quite often to the detriment of it. I think it has more to do with cultural definitions of identity than anything else.

248 points by anu_gupta 13y ago

This story make me sad for the human species, it sounds criminal. On the upside, with tech of course: Is there any existing app for labor conditions reporting? If potential employees had a slight opportunity to easily research conditions, they might choose another company with a better record. This would have the potential to drive disreputable shops out of business and promote those that care a bit more about basic human rights. It would be a daunting education and development task, but one that would be meaningful.

sokoloff 13y ago
This is an environment where people borrow $1000 at 36% interest to get placed in a job overseas. In such an environment, I don't know there's a lot of practical room for, "Nah, I don't want that one; what else you got?!"
- ballard 13y ago
  Predatory lending on top of indentured servitude: dual slavery of the body and poverty. I'm sure there are much worse and much better companies than what is reported regarding un/semi-skilled labor workforce vendors. The former should not be allowed to survive. Would be a cool project if someone went undercover themselves to make a docu on the living and work conditions of these industrial sites to expose this further.

dm8 13y ago

Lot of Indians also work in these countries due to poverty reasons. I feel privileged to be born in a relatively wealthy and educated family in India. If it was not the case may be I would have one of the migrant workers like them. If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money. Few million dollars will hardly going to move needle for them. I smell corruption.

ameen 13y ago
Corruption by the middle-men, the worst part is fellow Indians/Nepalis run such recruitment rackets and fake certificates and stuff. Even if those countries wanted to do better, these middle-men would gobble up the benefits and pass the hardwork to uneducated/naive migrant workers.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  Here's a new thought: Enforce the law.
- enupten 13y ago
  Apparently, that is also true of farmers in India. If only the government can bring in better policies to improve logistics; oh how poverty corrodes the soul of a society.
- zizee 13y ago
  The countries could enforce/create laws and protect these people. To suggest that they have no power in the situation laughable. They cannot be absolved of their responsibility for this issue.
- cabalamat 13y ago
  > uneducated/naive migrant workers I suspect that, due to the internet, prospective migrant works are a good deal less naive than they used to be. Which makes me wonder if Nepalese will still be prepared to work there in future.
  - dm8 13y ago
    They are well aware of working conditions. I'm sure some migrant workers might be returning to Nepal and this type of information spreads quickly within rural communities. And Nepalese people will still work for them. Poverty makes people do all sorts of things. And that includes taking risks with your own life.
vellum 13y ago
If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good working conditions and pay more money Racism. There's a certain pecking order in the Gulf: 1.) Locals, 2.) Other Gulf nationals, 3.) Whites (Western), 4.) Non-white professionals (Western) 5.) Other Arabs (professionals), 5.) South Asian professionals, 6.) Working class (busboys/waiters/etc.), 7.) Day laborers (mostly South Asian). If you see a certain race/class as subhuman, why would you provide them with good working conditions?

enupten 13y ago

Yes, this is awful, but what more can you expect from the Middle East? On a more political note, did Al Jazeera, report on this ?

ucha 13y ago
Yes, they did. A quick search turns this: http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/06/201261472812737158.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2012/06/2012... http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/06/201261264715371679.html http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2012/06/2012612647... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/201327142630923249.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/02/20132714263...
- enupten 13y ago
  Wow, that's very nice; thank you for making up for my laziness.
- sammyo 13y ago
  I do wonder if these stories are distributed to the Arabic editions.
zizee 13y ago
You should not paint all countries in the Middle East with the same brush.
- camus 13y ago
  Yeah there are great beaches in Dubai... and a lot of slaves building fancy hotels too, see , that's not the same.
  - Ecio78 13y ago
    relevant article: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-har...

dajohnson89 13y ago

Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

kps 13y ago
The Guardian is Britain's third biggest newspaper, and the slavery story is on the front page. Close enough?
- yapcguy 13y ago
  Discussion on the main World Cup Slaves story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6446077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6446077
- 616c 13y ago
  The article is currently front page [0] on Doha News [1], which many expats read daily in their office. So, yes, it is front page as far as I concerned. Few people who live around this area would read state-run newspapers. [0] http://dohanews.co/post/62313447527/guardian-nepali-workers-in-qatar-being-used-as-slave http://dohanews.co/post/62313447527/guardian-nepali-workers-... [1] http://dohanews.co http://dohanews.co
- DharmaPolice 13y ago
  What metric are you using for third biggest? The national figures I've seen put the Guardian in a pretty lowly 10th place in terms of circulation. Even if you exclude most of the popular papers (i.e. tabloids) and look only at broadsheets then the Guardian is still only 4th (of 5). The Guardian certainly punches above it's weight through its internet site the paper itself is nowhere near as big as the other papers. Source: http://www.theguardian.com/media/table/2013/jul/15/abcs-national-newspapers http://www.theguardian.com/media/table/2013/jul/15/abcs-nati...
waps 13y ago
Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that employ slavery, or effective slavery : Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is part of a particular religion. And the fact that if that religion entrenches itself in a society, it has a very strong tendency to bring slavery back. (Fun fact : know what the arabic word for slave is ? "Abed". Literally it means "black". "Black gold", when it was a popular term in the 19th and 20th centuries, referred to slaves, not oil.

joonix 13y ago

See my post in the other thread about living in Qatar. The exit visa is a system that legally enables indentured servitude. Any country that has this system (pretty much just Islamic mideast countries) should be shunned by the US and the UN (won't happen of course given the US has a couple of bases in Qatar and BP has a huge investment there).

vacri 13y ago
Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured servitude.
- camus 13y ago
  It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas in Asia. Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...
  - waps 13y ago
    Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim). Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to, firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g. purchasing slaves then freeing them). Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers, which lead to ...) Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun). So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism (ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and Christianity. Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical name for Islam) And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India, they're doing a good job fighting slavery though). As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the consequences of that. Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of stability.

camus 13y ago

There will be no justice for that kid. Nobody will be held accountable.

nikatwork 13y ago

Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview?

jrmurad 13y ago
| Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible situation into their worldview? Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts. > He was 16 There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract. > arranging a fake passport stating he was 20 Fraud. > wages retained Who would sign a contract like this? It's most likely a violation. > deprived of the ID cards they need to move around freely without fear of arrest Seems like a failure of the State, to be arresting people who are allowed to be there. > demand their wages, a drastic step given that the authorities can simply expel them to penury If "the authorities" refers to the State, I'd say it's another failure of government, not the free market. > refusing to issue the exit permits they needed to return home Yet another failure of the State, if I'm reading that correctly as a restriction of the freedom of movement: a basic human right which brutal, anti-capitalist regimes are infamous for violating (e.g. Berlin Wall). Historically, people tend to flee from less free (market) countries to more free (market) countries. > the kafala system binds the worker to a single employer Is "kafala" a system of laws? This sounds like Directive 10-289 which Ayn Rand rails against in Atlas Shrugged: "All workers, wage earners, and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment"
- nazgulnarsil 13y ago
  Don't forget the most important underlying issue: a "free market advocate" should not want to contract with contract breakers (fraud, force) for the most obvious reason. Visible differences have historically been used as a Schelling fence on this issue. "Oh you can do business with me despite the fact that I use force and fraud, I only use it against people with dark skin."
- nikatwork 13y ago
  My point (and I am being serious) is that these worker abuses seem to be the result of a complete lack of government regulations surrounding the labor force. However you do raise a good point, in this situation the workers are not free to pick up and leave, which invalidates it as an argument against free market advocation. I concede the discussion to you good sir.

aptwebapps 13y ago

From another article on the topic by The Guardian [1] The British engineering company Halcrow, part of the CH2M Hill group, is a lead consultant on the Lusail project responsible for "infrastructure design and construction supervision". CH2M Hill was recently appointed the official programme management consultant to the supreme committee. It says it has a "zero tolerance policy for the use of forced labour and other human trafficking practices". Halcrow said: "Our supervision role of specific construction packages ensures adherence to site contract regulation for health, safety and environment. The terms of employment of a contractor's labour force is not under our direct purview." So they've got a zero tolerance policy, unless you're talking about the actions of their contractors which is just, like, totally out of their control, man. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves?CMP=twt_gu http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...

dm8 13y ago

On a side note, is there anyway we can donate money to his family. ~ $1500 with 36% interest is lot of money for his poor Nepalese family and I doubt they will be able to repay that debt. I guess they will have to work rest of their life just to repay money. I'd be up for donating some money to their family. How do I do it?

polymatter 13y ago
I'd also be interested. But I want strong verification that it hasn't just gone straight into a local officials next holiday fund.
mcv 13y ago
I'm really hoping they don't have to repay that debt. If it's illegal according to Nepalese law, then surely nobody can force them to pay up? If they will be forced to pay, that makes an already terrible and inhuman situation even worse.
DanBC 13y ago
Is buying people out of slavery a good idea, or does it just keep more people in slavery?

anigbrowl 13y ago

This is heartbreaking, but I'm having a hard time seeing the HN angle, except that there was another thread on the same subject earlier today. I suggest this is more suitable fare for Reddit.

DanBC 13y ago
While I say that anything can fit on HN I have a hard time with articles like this, because the threads are usually full of hateful idiots bickering about things they have little knowledge of. What have I learnt from the comments to this submission?

bsullivan01 13y ago

If CIA wanted Qatar's Royal family gone, they'd ship 50,000 AKs, pick a few leaders from each ethnic group and Viva La Revolucion! Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks

DominikR 13y ago
The moment these middle eastern countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen) are not useful to Western foreign policy anymore and therefore lose our support, they will probably disintegrate. You've got citizens that are a minority in their own country, and that are largely incompetent and incapable of running anything, because they never had to do any work. And then you have a majority of foreign workers that are largely treated like slaves, and probably not happy with that situation. I can't see who would support those regimes if they get into troubles Europe certainly wouldn't, politicians here already call those countries dictatorships (publicly) and noone want's to have any affiliation with them. Russia and China both already had their experiences with terrorism sponsored by those regimes, so I wouldn't expect any support from them either. I think that particularly Saudi Arabia already sees the writings on the wall and they are actively taking measures but it will be too late, too little.

neel980 13y ago

Seems to be the case across the surrounding region http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari...

mmariani 13y ago

""" ...Nepalese men and women leave their towns and villages for jobs overseas. More than 100,000 head to Qatar, where a booming construction industry and insatiable appetite for cheap labour has been fuelled by its successful bid to host the 2022 World Cup... """ Just like Rome's slaves built the Colosseum so that the upper classes could keep the masses entertained to keep exploiting them. We really have not learned shit in the past couple thousand years.

kubiiii 13y ago
The difference here is that the stadiums will likely stay empty during the world cup. They are litterally doing that for nothing.

known 13y ago

Sounds like http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million-strong-dalit-community-faces-discrimination-every-da/ http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million...

ppradhan 13y ago

I am from Nepal. This happens because of poverty and people need to make a living. Awareness is high among migrant workers about the conditions - given hundreds of thousands travel each year and news travels back. But hope of 200-500 USD per month makes people take risks and the exodus continues. Once there, dodgy contractors and employment agents take advantage when they can. The exit visa system really doesn't help either. Neither do unstable government, weak economy and low employment back home. It is an actual fact that in desperation, the poor migrant workers are made to work long hours in extreme heat (direct sunlight). At nighttime, close to the desert where many of these fetid labour quarters are get suddenly cold. Extreme variations in temperature and strenuous manual work is said to have contributed to all these heart attack deaths in young people - as young as 20. I'm not sure exactly because I'm not a medical professional - but the conditions are definitely not conducive to human survival. The way international community has taken notice with this article does help. Business communities and political interests might do their best to keep the blatant human/labour rights violation under wraps but spreading the news will make their task harder. People from countries with vested economic stakes in these gulf countries etc could do well to pressurise their governments to demand accountability. Work is what the workers want - but in humane conditions. Death should not be an acceptable condition of employment.

netcan 13y ago

This situation seems like an embodiment of several bad things that can be found everywhere, but all taken to the extreme. They add up to a slavery system. First of all, I think that slavery is a relative concept. The modern comparison archetype that most people know the most about is the American system of race based chattel slavery. But, there have been many many different systems all throughout history. All different. Slavery is something that exists on a difficult to define continuum. Many (most?) countries have laws for emoting foreigners. They usually have more limited rights compared to citizens. Deportation looms. Residency is tied to employment. The country is not run for them. When it's a Belgian professor teaching in Russia, it obviously isn't slavery. When it's this poor Nepali man in Qatar isn't. There just isn't a clear line between the two. Contracts? Consent? What do those mean when you have the power differences between a Qatari Sheik and an illiterate. Qatar is comparable in a lot of ways to ancient slave states. There are a small minority (2-5% depending on how you define it) of extremely privileged aristocracy, members of important families. Another 10% of Qatari citizens who make up most of the the professional class. The foreign professional class (10-15%) of mostly arabs and whites. They have fewer rights, but are materially well off. Then a vast underclass (50-60%) of poor foreigners with no rights and practical situations ranging from bad to awful. Work to death conditions. Sexual assault. Chattel-like system of employer-employee relations. Probably similar distributions to famous slave states like Sparta.

abup 13y ago

I am from Nepal. The irony in all this is that we Nepalese will keep flying the Qatar Airways. The Nepalese airlines, a state-owned corporation, used to have regular flights to many busy destinations like Frankfurt. But like with everything that has happened in Nepal for the last 10-15 years, this has gone downhill. Qatar bribed many Football Associations in FIFA to get this world cup bid. One of them was Nepal. The Nepalese FA's president is in good terms with the Qatari FA, and was apparently given nice kickbacks for voting in their favor.

projectramo 13y ago

Slavery in Qatar has nothing to do with religion. This is the equivalent of taking some example of modern day slavery (say the 20 million alleged http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-unidentified?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...) and then saying this is part of US history. Saying slavery is inherently Islamic is like saying slavery is inherently American. And then for proof, going over centuries of quotes about slaves, beatings of slaves, violence during desegregation and the whole entire ugly history of race relations. Anyone remotely well read knows this is absurd. That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control.

dvmmh 13y ago
"That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control." No. The fact that the local populace doesn't care at all and encourages it, means that it is a HUGELY systemic problem.

projectramo 13y ago

We have to end this now: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-unidentified?lite http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...

bradleysmith 13y ago

Seems a dead horse at this point, but this was common-place in Saudi Arabia where I grew up. Migrant workers from Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the Phillipines (from memory) and elsewhere were notoriously mistreated. My mother worked at a TV & Radio broadcast station for a (...the) major oil company there (side job, father was in oil @ same company), and found out the janitorial staff in her building were going both unpaid and unfed during their workdays for months at a time. I remember helping her with food-drives to pull food from expat communities for them. It was well known to expat kids running around on-compound that 'gardeners' (generally bangladeshi and nepalese) were absolutely second-class citizens. These people were absolutely degraded at the hands of Saudi nationals and expats of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities (yes, westerners too). I've seen them yelled & cursed at, spit on, and beaten by company Security officers (generally al-Dossari Saudi's, but not always). The horror stories are literally countless. There seems to have been a lot of discussion in this thread as to the effect that religion has played as a cause of this treatment of migrant workers. I DO NOT know (nor believe) that Islam has a direct role to play, but I can say confidently that this is a reflection of culture. There is a general acceptance of inherent difference in levels of humanity that is tied to national (and tribal) identities in many Middle Eastern countries. I would wager that the majority of the population (at the time I was living there, demographics change fast, and there are a boatload of young people in KSA) would tell you that a Sri Lanken / Bangladeshi / Pakistani != a Brit / American / Frenchmen, etc., and not feel that bad about it. As I observed it, some of these people believed this as coldly as it is stated above, while a great many see it as a fact the whole world thinks this, but their culture/mindset is 'realistic' (shudders) or honest enough to admit it. I DO NOT believe this is simply a 'rich taking advantage of poor' scenario. In my experience, these people are mistreated far worse than necessary for profit, or probably quite often to the detriment of it. I think it has more to do with cultural definitions of identity than anything else.