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One would be hard pressed to learn chemistry or physics without the resources of a university. I don't want a building designed by a self-taught architect or a

by Zimahl 13y ago

One would be hard pressed to learn chemistry or physics without the resources of a university. I don't want a building designed by a self-taught architect or a bridge designed by a self-taught mechanical engineer. I don't want to fly in a plane designed by a self-taught aeronautical engineer. While 50% of STEM jobs don't explicitly require a degree, it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one.

randomdata 13y ago
> it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one. Is that assertion based on more than emotion? If 20% of all jobs require high-level STEM knowledge as stated in the paper, the degree attainment rate is 30%[1], and less than 20% of the degrees awarded in 2010 were STEM-based[2], the numbers do not appear to add up. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... [2] http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-stem-majors-looking-at-the-most-popular-degrees-for-us-students/ http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-ste...
- Zimahl 13y ago
  Is that assertion based on more than emotion? Emotion? It's based on honest assessment. Please show me one architecture firm who will hire a self-taught architect or an aeronautical company that will hire a self-taught aeronautical engineer. Other careers are simply unable to attain without the resources of universities because you can't practice the craft to even begin to be proficient. The offset in the percentages has a lot to do with IT. I do not consider much of what IT does to be STEM. It's skilled labor with respect to (T)echnology but a lot of it is no more skillful than a carpenter using math to cut a 2x4. Yet some articles put the carpenter as a STEM job[1]. I'm sorry, I just don't consider a mechanic or electrician as a STEM job in most situations. [1] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of-stem-jobs-dont-require-bachelors-degree http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of...
  - randomdata 13y ago
    An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. Very few jobs actually require one. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily.
    - Zimahl 13y ago
      Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. I never once said that few professions do not require a degree. The article is about whether college is necessary and I said it was necessary for a number of professions due to the difficulty of getting instruction outside of a university. You are getting hung up on the word "require". Yes, being a doctor requires a license which is vetted by degree. I'm saying that being a chemist (a US chemist, not the UK version of a pharmacist) doesn't require a degree per se, however, you are going to need to head to a university to be able to get the instruction and resources to be able to properly learn as they are both prohibitively unavailable externally. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily. If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges.
      - randomdata 13y ago
        > If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges. I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. In the context of promoting going to college, you have to look at the jobs that everyone will be doing. If 100% of the population had a STEM degree, 100% of the population will not be doing STEM jobs. That is not how it works. Agriculture comes to mind as a university accredited program, and while I'm sure it can be useful, you do not need a degree in agriculture to be a successful farmer. So, what makes a profession spawn from a degree? An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count? Perhaps it is only those doing cutting edge research who should be counted as a degree-spawned profession? I would be on board with that definition. Reimplementing someone else's algorithm that you learned in a CS program always seemed more like being a carpenter anyway. The people creating new algorithms that have never been seen before are in a different class. Keep in mind that you're also talking about a tiny fraction of the population actually doing that kind of work though, and those types of jobs are almost impossible to get unless you are the best of the best. Promoting more people to get a degree is not going to improve that situation. Speaking of electrical engineering, there was an article in a national newspaper a month or two ago about the top jobs (pay wise) for people without degrees, and electrical engineer was near the top of the list. Programming and IT work did not even make the cut at all.

by Zimahl 13y ago

randomdata 13y ago

> it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one. Is that assertion based on more than emotion? If 20% of all jobs require high-level STEM knowledge as stated in the paper, the degree attainment rate is 30%[1], and less than 20% of the degrees awarded in 2010 were STEM-based[2], the numbers do not appear to add up. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... [2] http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-stem-majors-looking-at-the-most-popular-degrees-for-us-students/ http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-ste...

Zimahl 13y ago
Is that assertion based on more than emotion? Emotion? It's based on honest assessment. Please show me one architecture firm who will hire a self-taught architect or an aeronautical company that will hire a self-taught aeronautical engineer. Other careers are simply unable to attain without the resources of universities because you can't practice the craft to even begin to be proficient. The offset in the percentages has a lot to do with IT. I do not consider much of what IT does to be STEM. It's skilled labor with respect to (T)echnology but a lot of it is no more skillful than a carpenter using math to cut a 2x4. Yet some articles put the carpenter as a STEM job[1]. I'm sorry, I just don't consider a mechanic or electrician as a STEM job in most situations. [1] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of-stem-jobs-dont-require-bachelors-degree http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of...
- randomdata 13y ago
  An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. Very few jobs actually require one. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily.
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. I never once said that few professions do not require a degree. The article is about whether college is necessary and I said it was necessary for a number of professions due to the difficulty of getting instruction outside of a university. You are getting hung up on the word "require". Yes, being a doctor requires a license which is vetted by degree. I'm saying that being a chemist (a US chemist, not the UK version of a pharmacist) doesn't require a degree per se, however, you are going to need to head to a university to be able to get the instruction and resources to be able to properly learn as they are both prohibitively unavailable externally. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily. If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges.
    - randomdata 13y ago
      > If you are able to think of very few that require a degree (both directly or indirectly), outside of IT, what are those? And please limit yourself to professions that are spawned from degrees. A carpenter, electrician, etc., are not taught at colleges. I feel like you are moving the posts again to support your argument. In the context of promoting going to college, you have to look at the jobs that everyone will be doing. If 100% of the population had a STEM degree, 100% of the population will not be doing STEM jobs. That is not how it works. Agriculture comes to mind as a university accredited program, and while I'm sure it can be useful, you do not need a degree in agriculture to be a successful farmer. So, what makes a profession spawn from a degree? An electrician's job is deeply rooted in the research done by physicist and electrical engineers, so why does it not count? Perhaps it is only those doing cutting edge research who should be counted as a degree-spawned profession? I would be on board with that definition. Reimplementing someone else's algorithm that you learned in a CS program always seemed more like being a carpenter anyway. The people creating new algorithms that have never been seen before are in a different class. Keep in mind that you're also talking about a tiny fraction of the population actually doing that kind of work though, and those types of jobs are almost impossible to get unless you are the best of the best. Promoting more people to get a degree is not going to improve that situation. Speaking of electrical engineering, there was an article in a national newspaper a month or two ago about the top jobs (pay wise) for people without degrees, and electrical engineer was near the top of the list. Programming and IT work did not even make the cut at all.