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What you say is very true. However I think there is a problem in America of young people rejecting what you are saying not because they think it is wrong, but

by jlgreco 13y ago

What you say is very true. However I think there is a problem in America of young people rejecting what you are saying not because they think it is wrong, but because they don't like it. You could call this 'delusion', or even a manifestation of 'entitlement culture'... but whatever it is, I think it is a problem. It isn't all just fun and games when young people are getting expensive degrees that cannot be financially justified; their actions don't just effect themselves. A generation of broke disillusioned college educated kids without decent employment prospects isn't exactly something that benefits society. Just for starters, what the hell are they going to teach their kids to strive for? "Don't bother pursuing education kiddo, you'll just end up broke."?

WalterSear 13y ago
If you bring up someone by telling them "they can be anything they want," they aren't going to change that opinion because they hear something else for a year or four. And, people can't stand not being able to tell their children that they can be anything they want, because that would involve admitting that they are part of a failing system. It's easier to blame the victim, even if you are the victim.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Yes, I think the "be anything you want to be" message is largely to blame for the rejection of the idea "No.. you can't." My fear is that we will replace that message with "You can't do anything you want, and don't even bother trying. 'The Man' won't permit you to succeed." The message we should be sending is in the middle: "Some of you can do what you want, if you try hard enough and happen to want something that society values"
  - anonymous 13y ago
    Can't we just give them this t-shirt? http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-ASTRO&Category_Code=ALLSHIRTS http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=... (or maybe http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-FAILURE&Category_Code=ALLSHIRTS http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=... ) Note: not affiliated, it's just so perfect.
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    All three messages miss the fact that it's society's choices that have ultimately compromised the opportunities of the next generation. In other words, the same people who are imparting the message - their parents.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      It's not "society's choices", it is just the fundemantal limitations of society. Society only needs so many historian professors. If too many people want to be historian professors but aren't bothering to research their employment prospects, then we have a problem, but it is really their own fault (or if you want to be generous, their parents' for failing to raise them to be realistic). Society as a whole suffers for that, but it isn't society's "fault" that there are not unlimited History Professor positions. If we go with the third option, parents teaching their children to have realistic expectations and forward-looking attitudes towards education, then there is no problem. If people understand that they can succeed if they pick the right field and try hard enough, but should not expect success if they don't, then we are golden. Right now many people seem to reject the "pick the right field" part not because they disagree with it, but because they disapprove of it.
      - WalterSear 13y ago
        Fair enough. However, while this makes sense for Historians, it doesn't make sense for academia as a whole, nor does it take into account that the fact we can't afford so many Historians is directly because each generation since the boomers is experiencing a worse standard of living than their parents. Yes, realism and awareness are important. But, the reasons they are so important right now are the complacencies and narcissistic ideologies that have inhibited the nation's prosperity.
        jlgreco 13y ago
        "nor does it take into account that the fact we can't afford so many Historians is directly because each generation since the boomers is experiencing a worse standard of living than their parents." (Just ignoring the dubious nature of the assertion about declining standard of living, particularly for people other than white males...) Alternatively it is because all the Baby Boomers are sending all of their kids off to college, pushing it as the only legitimate career path, reducing the relative value of merely having a college degree, and ultimately forcing kids to specialize something actually useful to remain competitive. Improved standards of living (in this case, near universal access to universities) is to blame, but who can really fault an improved standard of living? If you only have a few lucky people going to college, then a classical or "liberal arts" education is worth something. If these sorts of educations are a dime a dozen, then you need a more specialized degree to compete. A specialized degree in something relevant to whatever you are competing for. It turns out that a history degree isn't something that is valued in that sort of system. tl;dr: More kids go to college -> Each kid in college has more people to compete with -> More kids focus on classes that will help them compete -> Fewer kids load up on History classes -> Fewer history professors are needed.
derleth 13y ago
> However I think there is a problem in America of young people rejecting what you are saying not because they think it is wrong, but because they don't like it. Like how they expect Social Security to still be there even if they cut taxes, and how 'Socialized Medicine' is evil but Medicaid is utterly sacrosanct and untouchable, and ... Oh, wait, that's what old people are on about now.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Rejecting reality because you don't like it certainly is not a problem only seen among young people. However young people are the people I am talking about here because they are the ones going into, in, or recently graduate from university. Old farts saying "I am going to study Foo, so I am going to, employment rates be damned!" is not exactly a significant problem.

by jlgreco 13y ago

WalterSear 13y ago

If you bring up someone by telling them "they can be anything they want," they aren't going to change that opinion because they hear something else for a year or four. And, people can't stand not being able to tell their children that they can be anything they want, because that would involve admitting that they are part of a failing system. It's easier to blame the victim, even if you are the victim.

jlgreco 13y ago
Yes, I think the "be anything you want to be" message is largely to blame for the rejection of the idea "No.. you can't." My fear is that we will replace that message with "You can't do anything you want, and don't even bother trying. 'The Man' won't permit you to succeed." The message we should be sending is in the middle: "Some of you can do what you want, if you try hard enough and happen to want something that society values"
- anonymous 13y ago
  Can't we just give them this t-shirt? http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-ASTRO&Category_Code=ALLSHIRTS http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=... (or maybe http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=QW-FAILURE&Category_Code=ALLSHIRTS http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=... ) Note: not affiliated, it's just so perfect.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  All three messages miss the fact that it's society's choices that have ultimately compromised the opportunities of the next generation. In other words, the same people who are imparting the message - their parents.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    It's not "society's choices", it is just the fundemantal limitations of society. Society only needs so many historian professors. If too many people want to be historian professors but aren't bothering to research their employment prospects, then we have a problem, but it is really their own fault (or if you want to be generous, their parents' for failing to raise them to be realistic). Society as a whole suffers for that, but it isn't society's "fault" that there are not unlimited History Professor positions. If we go with the third option, parents teaching their children to have realistic expectations and forward-looking attitudes towards education, then there is no problem. If people understand that they can succeed if they pick the right field and try hard enough, but should not expect success if they don't, then we are golden. Right now many people seem to reject the "pick the right field" part not because they disagree with it, but because they disapprove of it.
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      Fair enough. However, while this makes sense for Historians, it doesn't make sense for academia as a whole, nor does it take into account that the fact we can't afford so many Historians is directly because each generation since the boomers is experiencing a worse standard of living than their parents. Yes, realism and awareness are important. But, the reasons they are so important right now are the complacencies and narcissistic ideologies that have inhibited the nation's prosperity.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        "nor does it take into account that the fact we can't afford so many Historians is directly because each generation since the boomers is experiencing a worse standard of living than their parents." (Just ignoring the dubious nature of the assertion about declining standard of living, particularly for people other than white males...) Alternatively it is because all the Baby Boomers are sending all of their kids off to college, pushing it as the only legitimate career path, reducing the relative value of merely having a college degree, and ultimately forcing kids to specialize something actually useful to remain competitive. Improved standards of living (in this case, near universal access to universities) is to blame, but who can really fault an improved standard of living? If you only have a few lucky people going to college, then a classical or "liberal arts" education is worth something. If these sorts of educations are a dime a dozen, then you need a more specialized degree to compete. A specialized degree in something relevant to whatever you are competing for. It turns out that a history degree isn't something that is valued in that sort of system. tl;dr: More kids go to college -> Each kid in college has more people to compete with -> More kids focus on classes that will help them compete -> Fewer kids load up on History classes -> Fewer history professors are needed.

derleth 13y ago

> However I think there is a problem in America of young people rejecting what you are saying not because they think it is wrong, but because they don't like it. Like how they expect Social Security to still be there even if they cut taxes, and how 'Socialized Medicine' is evil but Medicaid is utterly sacrosanct and untouchable, and ... Oh, wait, that's what old people are on about now.

jlgreco 13y ago
Rejecting reality because you don't like it certainly is not a problem only seen among young people. However young people are the people I am talking about here because they are the ones going into, in, or recently graduate from university. Old farts saying "I am going to study Foo, so I am going to, employment rates be damned!" is not exactly a significant problem.