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Yes, I know that college was worth it 30 years ago, and even 15 years ago. That is not the real question. The question is will this continue to be true in the f

by Zimahl 13y ago

Yes, I know that college was worth it 30 years ago, and even 15 years ago. That is not the real question. The question is will this continue to be true in the future? I know this gets brought up all the time on here but HN is not a good indicator of college worth. One of the few (if not the only) disciplines where college might not be necessary is software and this board is primarily software. Even then looking at the difference between the definitions of software developer and a software engineer may make this moot. That line of reasoning is irrelevant if we are in fact at an inflection point. ... Arguments based on trend lines from 30 years ago miss the heart of this subject. Not really. Until there is a real, tangible way for the average individual to get an accepted post-secondary education, we aren't at an inflection point. And other than software development, I personally can't think of another engineering or science profession that could be replaced by self-study and/or experience.

randomdata 13y ago
> One of the few (if not the only) disciplines where college might not be necessary I struggle to think of many professions that do require a degree. Doctor, lawyer, and engineer stand out as the obvious ones, but where there is no legal mandate, there is no requirement. 50% of high-level STEM jobs do not even require a degree[1]. [1] http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2013/06/10%20stem%20economy%20rothwell/thehiddenstemeconomy610 http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2013...
- Zimahl 13y ago
  One would be hard pressed to learn chemistry or physics without the resources of a university. I don't want a building designed by a self-taught architect or a bridge designed by a self-taught mechanical engineer. I don't want to fly in a plane designed by a self-taught aeronautical engineer. While 50% of STEM jobs don't explicitly require a degree, it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one. Is that assertion based on more than emotion? If 20% of all jobs require high-level STEM knowledge as stated in the paper, the degree attainment rate is 30%[1], and less than 20% of the degrees awarded in 2010 were STEM-based[2], the numbers do not appear to add up. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... [2] http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-stem-majors-looking-at-the-most-popular-degrees-for-us-students/ http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-ste...
    - Zimahl 13y ago
      Is that assertion based on more than emotion? Emotion? It's based on honest assessment. Please show me one architecture firm who will hire a self-taught architect or an aeronautical company that will hire a self-taught aeronautical engineer. Other careers are simply unable to attain without the resources of universities because you can't practice the craft to even begin to be proficient. The offset in the percentages has a lot to do with IT. I do not consider much of what IT does to be STEM. It's skilled labor with respect to (T)echnology but a lot of it is no more skillful than a carpenter using math to cut a 2x4. Yet some articles put the carpenter as a STEM job[1]. I'm sorry, I just don't consider a mechanic or electrician as a STEM job in most situations. [1] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of-stem-jobs-dont-require-bachelors-degree http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of...
      - randomdata 13y ago
        An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. Very few jobs actually require one. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily.

by Zimahl 13y ago

randomdata 13y ago

> One of the few (if not the only) disciplines where college might not be necessary I struggle to think of many professions that do require a degree. Doctor, lawyer, and engineer stand out as the obvious ones, but where there is no legal mandate, there is no requirement. 50% of high-level STEM jobs do not even require a degree[1]. [1] http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2013/06/10%20stem%20economy%20rothwell/thehiddenstemeconomy610 http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2013...

Zimahl 13y ago
One would be hard pressed to learn chemistry or physics without the resources of a university. I don't want a building designed by a self-taught architect or a bridge designed by a self-taught mechanical engineer. I don't want to fly in a plane designed by a self-taught aeronautical engineer. While 50% of STEM jobs don't explicitly require a degree, it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > it would be prohibitively difficult to get a career in those fields without one. Is that assertion based on more than emotion? If 20% of all jobs require high-level STEM knowledge as stated in the paper, the degree attainment rate is 30%[1], and less than 20% of the degrees awarded in 2010 were STEM-based[2], the numbers do not appear to add up. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U... [2] http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-stem-majors-looking-at-the-most-popular-degrees-for-us-students/ http://www.economicmodeling.com/2012/01/11/humanities-or-ste...
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Is that assertion based on more than emotion? Emotion? It's based on honest assessment. Please show me one architecture firm who will hire a self-taught architect or an aeronautical company that will hire a self-taught aeronautical engineer. Other careers are simply unable to attain without the resources of universities because you can't practice the craft to even begin to be proficient. The offset in the percentages has a lot to do with IT. I do not consider much of what IT does to be STEM. It's skilled labor with respect to (T)echnology but a lot of it is no more skillful than a carpenter using math to cut a 2x4. Yet some articles put the carpenter as a STEM job[1]. I'm sorry, I just don't consider a mechanic or electrician as a STEM job in most situations. [1] http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of-stem-jobs-dont-require-bachelors-degree http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/10/study-half-of...
    - randomdata 13y ago
      An honest assessment of all STEM jobs, based on the definition given in the linked paper, or just an honest assessment of the 50% of STEM jobs that do require a degree? I expect you are right that architects and aeronautical engineers do more often than not require a degree, but that just places them in the other 50%. It does not invalidate the study. Even still, when ~70% of the population do not have degrees, it seems insidious to say that programming is one of the few professions that do not require a degree. Very few jobs actually require one. Again, I struggle to think of more than a few professions that actually do require a degree, even if arbitrarily.