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"Even in the computer and IT industry, the sector that employs the most STEM workers and is expected to grow the most over the next 5 to 10 years, not everyone

by pg 13y ago

"Even in the computer and IT industry, the sector that employs the most STEM workers and is expected to grow the most over the next 5 to 10 years, not everyone who wants a job can find one. A recent study by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a liberal-leaning think tank in Washington, D.C., found that more than a third of recent computer science graduates aren’t working in their chosen major; of that group, almost a third say the reason is that there are no jobs available." Yet another article that hinges on the critical mistake that seems to underpin all these anti-immigration op-eds: that all workers trained in x are interchangeable. Any programmer knows this isn't true-- that there is a huge difference between great programmers and people who are merely trained in computer science. And that there is a genuine shortage of the former in former in Silicon Valley. Incidentally, the Economic Policy Institute is not merely "liberal-leaning." It was created by labor unions to spread precisely this sort of message.

tosseraccount 13y ago
Not all football players are interchangeable. Teams are all competing for the same talent pool. There is no shortage of football players. Want better players? Pay more so that there's incentive to work and come up with better management and training.
- pg 13y ago
  Oddly enough the best example to contradict this argument is football. The reason Real Madrid has so many foreign players is not that there's not enough infrastructure to train Spanish players, or that Real Madrid doesn't pay players enough. It's because being really good depends on natural ability, and if natural ability is evenly distributed, more than 99% of the best players are born outside Spain.
  - tosseraccount 13y ago
    "American" football, damit !
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
don_draper 13y ago
Money matters. I'm almost certain you know of people working in other (non programming) fields that were good programmers and if offered a 250K salary they would go back to programming, but they won't for a 120K salary. Employers need to stop whining and pay more. Edit: I can think of plenty of people (most former coworkers, actually) that work for the Accentures and IBMs because they got, among other things, more pay by working as a program manager. And they would love to leave that job and work as a programmer if they could get paid the same and not worry about their job being outsourced. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx?P=1 http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx...
- pg 13y ago
  No, actually, I can't think of one person I know who left programming because it didn't pay well enough.
  - don_draper 13y ago
    We must be living in different worlds then. I've seen many people leave programming to get a job in program management because those jobs a) are not easily outsourced and b) get healthy pay increases each year.
    - muzz 13y ago
      and perhaps c) are considered careers for people older than 35 just wondering, when an engineer is promoted to manager, is he no longer a STEM worker? and isn't he no longer employed in the field of his educational background?
    - randomdata 13y ago
      Not to mention the seemingly large number of programmers in the HN community that go the entrepreneurial route. Even if not giving up programming completely, the demands of running a business can significantly cut into the amount of programming work that can be done. If there was adequate compensation on the traditional job side, making that move would be a much more difficult decision. Everyone has their price.
pauljonas 13y ago
1. Yes, valid point on "all workers trained in x are interchangeable" -- but there's a contrast here between jobs in the 1000s and jobs in the 1-10s. Problem is, the "average" level jobs are relegated to "race to the bottom", leaving a dog-eat-dog realm where only top 1-10% star/superstar can attain a profitable career. I realize your focus and perspective is skewed to small, entrepreneurial startups, but most STEM workers are employed or contracted with large corporate (or government) organizations. In my experience, a great many computer science graduates are not working in their chosen major, and it exacerbates as they age. 2. Yes, there is a "huge difference between great programmers and people merely trained in computer science". OTOH, it used to be that aspiring programmers could bootstrap their way up (even many without formal "Computer Science" education) but now that age has passed, and instead it's expected that someone would just be waltz in at the superstar level. It's a strong bias against anyone without necessary means to devote time and energy to pursuing such a course. 3. "Liberal-leaning" and "labor unions" are not sympatico -- the relationship was a tenuous one, and really only in effect for the duration of the New Deal coalition.
eqdw 13y ago
They also continually refer to "IT workers". "IT" is very different from "programmers". You wouldn't expect an engineer to be interchangeable with a mechanic. I'm still trying to find out if this is a mistake, a failure of vocabulary on my part, or an intentional equivocation

by pg 13y ago

tosseraccount 13y ago

Not all football players are interchangeable. Teams are all competing for the same talent pool. There is no shortage of football players. Want better players? Pay more so that there's incentive to work and come up with better management and training.

pg 13y ago
Oddly enough the best example to contradict this argument is football. The reason Real Madrid has so many foreign players is not that there's not enough infrastructure to train Spanish players, or that Real Madrid doesn't pay players enough. It's because being really good depends on natural ability, and if natural ability is evenly distributed, more than 99% of the best players are born outside Spain.
- tosseraccount 13y ago
  "American" football, damit !
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

don_draper 13y ago

Money matters. I'm almost certain you know of people working in other (non programming) fields that were good programmers and if offered a 250K salary they would go back to programming, but they won't for a 120K salary. Employers need to stop whining and pay more. Edit: I can think of plenty of people (most former coworkers, actually) that work for the Accentures and IBMs because they got, among other things, more pay by working as a program manager. And they would love to leave that job and work as a programmer if they could get paid the same and not worry about their job being outsourced. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx?P=1 http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx...

pg 13y ago
No, actually, I can't think of one person I know who left programming because it didn't pay well enough.
- don_draper 13y ago
  We must be living in different worlds then. I've seen many people leave programming to get a job in program management because those jobs a) are not easily outsourced and b) get healthy pay increases each year.
  - muzz 13y ago
    and perhaps c) are considered careers for people older than 35 just wondering, when an engineer is promoted to manager, is he no longer a STEM worker? and isn't he no longer employed in the field of his educational background?
  - randomdata 13y ago
    Not to mention the seemingly large number of programmers in the HN community that go the entrepreneurial route. Even if not giving up programming completely, the demands of running a business can significantly cut into the amount of programming work that can be done. If there was adequate compensation on the traditional job side, making that move would be a much more difficult decision. Everyone has their price.

pauljonas 13y ago

1. Yes, valid point on "all workers trained in x are interchangeable" -- but there's a contrast here between jobs in the 1000s and jobs in the 1-10s. Problem is, the "average" level jobs are relegated to "race to the bottom", leaving a dog-eat-dog realm where only top 1-10% star/superstar can attain a profitable career. I realize your focus and perspective is skewed to small, entrepreneurial startups, but most STEM workers are employed or contracted with large corporate (or government) organizations. In my experience, a great many computer science graduates are not working in their chosen major, and it exacerbates as they age. 2. Yes, there is a "huge difference between great programmers and people merely trained in computer science". OTOH, it used to be that aspiring programmers could bootstrap their way up (even many without formal "Computer Science" education) but now that age has passed, and instead it's expected that someone would just be waltz in at the superstar level. It's a strong bias against anyone without necessary means to devote time and energy to pursuing such a course. 3. "Liberal-leaning" and "labor unions" are not sympatico -- the relationship was a tenuous one, and really only in effect for the duration of the New Deal coalition.

eqdw 13y ago

They also continually refer to "IT workers". "IT" is very different from "programmers". You wouldn't expect an engineer to be interchangeable with a mechanic. I'm still trying to find out if this is a mistake, a failure of vocabulary on my part, or an intentional equivocation