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I don't think there's much evidence to demonstrate that high-rep olympic lifts done by a trained person are any more dangerous then low-rep lifts at high weight

I don't think there's much evidence to demonstrate that high-rep olympic lifts done by a trained person are any more dangerous then low-rep lifts at high weight. Yes, if you don't have good technique you're asking for trouble, but that's not what we're talking about here. I don't think form breaks down after a few reps nearly as much as you say. There's probably a point at which it will, but there's a lot of room for breakdown that doesn't meaningfully increase your risk of injury. > but the competitive culture pressures you into continuing Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes, competition might help people push themselves, but that shouldn't turn you into a mindless machine that will self destruct just to get the win. If it does, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

graeme 13y ago
You're heavily underestimating group pressure. Have you never been in a 'chug, chug, chug, chug!' type of situation? Peer pressure makes people do LOTS of things they wouldn't otherwise do. In a certain sense, they're responsible for their actions. But it's silly to ignore the role that group persuasion has. If Crossfit creates pressure for harmful actions, then they share responsibility.
- mightybyte 13y ago
  People pushing you to go harder in a workout and "friends" pushing you in a chug-chug situation are not at all the same things. I choose to steer clear of those "friends", but that's beside the point. People cheering for you can never know your state, and there's really very little external pressure. If a coach is screaming at me and I don't feel it's safe to do more, I stop. And I'm sure that's what CrossFit will say too. You can't blame CrossFit for random people with a broken internal governor doing their workouts unsafely. CrossFit workouts are a powerful tool. When someone shoots themselves in the foot with it, they are the ones responsible assuming they have been educated properly. Hence Uncle Rhabdo.
  - graeme 13y ago
    The point is that it matters at the margins. You'll stop. And some people will foolishly keep going without the coach. But are you seriously arguing that the screaming coach has no marginal impact?
    - smsm42 13y ago
      There are people that would encourage others to do street racing, take dangerous drugs and light their farts for youtube video. And there always will be idiots who do it. That can happen in a gym setting too. So what? There are dumb people. Try not to be one of them. I think this message is universal and doesn't have anything to do with CF. What is the message that has something to do with it?
      - enraged_camel 13y ago
        >>There are dumb people. Try not to be one of them. Peer pressure can make smart people do dumb things. And since Crossfit has peer pressure and competition built into its very core, the rates of injuries and potentially-fatal medical conditions like rhabdo are a lot higher.
        smsm42 13y ago
        Well, I think it depends on how you approach to it. It doesn't have to be a competition with anyone but yourself. I agree that tracking results is at the core of CF, and when there's something measurable in a group setting, there is ample space for the competition. But it doesn't have to be - the choice is for the person to make. If you can let your mind and not your ego drive you, then you don't have to harm yourself for no reason. As for peer pressure - I think when a person above 22 or so of age is not able to withstand peer pressure to do something he thinks is harmful for him/her, there's something wrong happened on the way. Adults are supposed to be able to say no. Of course, you may make a choice to push yourself and take a risk, but that's what being responsible adult is all about - seeing where are the bounds of acceptable risk (and those can be different from person to person) are for you. Of course, again, good teacher is important - so you could always can consult what would be good for you on this exercise. Good coach can see how you do the exercise and tell if this weight or this form is good for you or you have to scale it down. That's where you have to, again, master your ego and be responsible too. And of course it is a given that you shouldn't go to a group which has different views on how competitive it should be and pressures you into something you're not ready for. There's a lot of difference between supporting and cheering somebody when one chooses to push oneself and pressuring somebody into doing something one is not ready for. If you find yourself in a group that does the latter and not the former - just leave. There are a lot of better settings.
dalke 13y ago
> Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. I have observed that hazing exists, including among adults. People die in hazing events, or are subjected to physical harm, coerced sexual activity, and emotionally abusive behaviors. As you say, "Each person is responsible for their own actions." Using only that logic as a guide, then everyone who dies in a hazing event - in those cases where it's voluntary to join the organization which practices hazing - is solely responsible for their own death. I do not take so narrow a view of that. We also have a responsibility for others as well. It isn't only the hazee who is responsible but also those who were involved or knew about the hazing but did nothing to stop it. Similarly, while I agree that people are responsible for their own well-being in training, I use my same reasoning to say that they are also partially responsible for the well-being of others. If you see someone else using equipment in a dangerous and fool-hardy way, with a high-likelihood that they will be seriously hurt, will you do nothing? If you notice that week after week people doing a specific exercise end up with twisted backs, will you do nothing? Or will you encourage people to work at it and try harder? Does culpability ever exist?
- mightybyte 13y ago
  When did we jump from encouraging someone to improve themselves to hazing? This had got to be one of the biggest straw men I've ever seen.
  - dalke 13y ago
    Really? After nearly 6 years on Hacker News? I should get an award! (Though I suspect you are exaggerating, so there will be no prize for me tonight.) Since you don't like it, take out all references to it. I said "I agree that people are responsible for their own well-being in training [but] they are also partially responsible for the well-being of others." Surely that's a stand-alone statement. The rest of my post gave examples in an exercise context where I think it would be unconscionable to say "Each person is responsible for their own actions. ... you have no one to blame but yourself." The entire point of the essay is, of course, that at some point "encouraging someone to improve themselves" may become "encouraging someone to hurt themselves". At some point there can be a justifiable claim of culpability, and coaches have been sued for bad advice. To deny that culpability doesn't exist, and that it's only the person's recklessness which caused the problem is to be blind to both ethics and the law.
PanTardovski 13y ago
>I don't think form breaks down after a few reps nearly as much as you say. Then you don't know much about training the Olympic lifts or power movements in general. Take a look at this graph -- http://i.imgur.com/vFP0D58.png http://i.imgur.com/vFP0D58.png -- from Practical Programming for Strength Training (Rippetoe, Kilgore, & Pendlay, pg. 131). "Figure 5-3. Electromyogram (EMG) and force production tracings from a high-rep set. Note that the muscle fatigues as more repetitions are completed and that motor control erodes with fatigue, as evidenced by the amplitude scatter of the EMG tracing. This effect can result from a single set, as presented here, or can be the cumulative result of repeated sets." Even by the seventh rep of a single set there's a noticable breakdown shown in the graph. Multiple high rep sets are going to show more and more issues of coordination from even the first rep, especially mixed into circuit training with other high intensity exercises like you'll find in Crossfit WODs.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mightybyte 13y ago
  I actually own that book and have read the whole thing...most of it more than once. I'm not saying that motor control doesn't go down. I'm saying that it doesn't go down enough to make it dangerous at the lighter weights. I have been doing high and low rep Olympic lifts since 2007. The only injury I ever got was on a 1RM clean and jerk. That might have been technique related, but it's probably more related to me having a history of previous injury which happened before I ever heard about CrossFit.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    For the love of God please stop with the anecdotal evidence.
    - mightybyte 13y ago
      I don't see you busting out any peer-reviewed studies to support your claim. If you don't have that, then it's your word against mine. The fact that most of the people who have done these movements do them in low reps and really high weight doesn't prove your point either. I have actually done the movements under question in both rep schemes, and it doesn't sound like you have.
thesz 13y ago
Regarding the reps and high weight. Westside Barbell changes program structure from 3 sets of 5 repetitions into 5 sets of 3 repetitions (or even 8 sets of 2 repetitions) precisely because it allows athlete to control form of exercise. The volume is the same, the breakdown is different. As Westside Barbell is trying to keep traumas low, it is a good example why you should not perform complex lifts in long series.
- graeme 13y ago
  Can you expand on that? I've been doing 3 * 5. I prefer injury minimization to strength gains. What kind of rest period do these use between sets? And do you have data on rep form decomposition at 5 vs. 3?
  - thesz 13y ago
    Okay, here's the link: http://www.westside-barbell.com/index.php/the-westside-barbell-university/articles-by-louie-simmons/strength-training-101/331-percent-training-what-is-it-really http://www.westside-barbell.com/index.php/the-westside-barbe... The relevant part: In the squat, what is too heavy to train with and too light to train with? In Russia , much research revealed that 65-82.5% of a 1 rep max is best to build strength in the squat. They suggest 2-6 reps per set. At Westside Barbell we do sets of 2 for 2 important reasons. One, more than 2 reps tends Cause bicipital tendonitis and shoulder discomfort. This pain is commonly felt while benching but, in fact, comes from squatting. The bar shifts to some degree, causing damage. Having your hands spaced too close on the bar may also be the culprit. Two, in a power meet, we don't do reps so if we do 12 sets of 2 reps we are getting 12 first reps per workout. If you do 4 sets of six reps, then you get only 4 first reps. This is closest thing I was able to find. The site was reorganized after I visited it last time and many PDF articles are in HTML format. I highly recommend Westside Barbell, because it operates using principles, not the hardwired percentages and prescribed exercises. You can build your own conjugate system, for your goals or abilities. I did. I also recommend another system, also seen here in HN, Hypertrophy-Specific Training: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html HST also incorporates strategic deconditioning and high-rep phase to lower trauma rate.
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes, competition might help people push themselves, but that shouldn't turn you into a mindless machine that will self destruct just to get the win. If it does, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Bullshit. A Crossfit trainer telling you to do high-rep barbell deadlifts is the equivalent of a doctor prescribing you ten times the dose of a drug you need. What happens when you are hospitalized? Is it your fault because "each person is responsible for their actions"?
- mightybyte 13y ago
  No, they're not at all equivalent. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, in the six years I've been doing them high-rep olympic lifts have never injured me, but a 1RM clean and jerk has. So until you can come to me with a large scale study supporting your point, you are just making baseless assertions that are contradicted by my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    The quality of discussion on HN has fallen so far that we are now using anecdotal evidence to argue that doing a complex multi-joint mechanical movement with heavy weights in a high-rep, high-tempo fashion is not dangerous, and the burden of proof is on dem non-Crossfitters to use large scale studies to prove that it is. I, too, have written elsewhere in this thread. Specifically, I wrote that these lifts are so complex that Olympic athletes spend years learning and mastering proper form, and go through very strict regimens to ensure their form does not break under heavier loads. There's a reason for that: the human body operates within certain parameters and going outside those parameters in the name of "pushing your limits" can permanently cripple you. So there is your "large scale study:" look at how Olympic athletes do it, because that's the way to do it safely and without destroying your muscles, joints and internal organs.
    - mightybyte 13y ago
      That's not your large scale study because they are focused on something completely different--namely max weight. A 135 lb clean and jerk is quite light in the grand scheme of things, but it can do a whole lot for your fitness when viewed in a holistic program that includes other exercises. Anecdotal evidence may not have the weight of a large-scale study, but it's not meaningless. In the absence of any other evidence, it is an indication that the mean probably tilts towards one side. And I have yet to see any real evidence that high rep olympic lifts are dangerous other than the non sequitur that they're complex motor movements.

graeme 13y ago

You're heavily underestimating group pressure. Have you never been in a 'chug, chug, chug, chug!' type of situation? Peer pressure makes people do LOTS of things they wouldn't otherwise do. In a certain sense, they're responsible for their actions. But it's silly to ignore the role that group persuasion has. If Crossfit creates pressure for harmful actions, then they share responsibility.

mightybyte 13y ago
People pushing you to go harder in a workout and "friends" pushing you in a chug-chug situation are not at all the same things. I choose to steer clear of those "friends", but that's beside the point. People cheering for you can never know your state, and there's really very little external pressure. If a coach is screaming at me and I don't feel it's safe to do more, I stop. And I'm sure that's what CrossFit will say too. You can't blame CrossFit for random people with a broken internal governor doing their workouts unsafely. CrossFit workouts are a powerful tool. When someone shoots themselves in the foot with it, they are the ones responsible assuming they have been educated properly. Hence Uncle Rhabdo.
- graeme 13y ago
  The point is that it matters at the margins. You'll stop. And some people will foolishly keep going without the coach. But are you seriously arguing that the screaming coach has no marginal impact?
  - smsm42 13y ago
    There are people that would encourage others to do street racing, take dangerous drugs and light their farts for youtube video. And there always will be idiots who do it. That can happen in a gym setting too. So what? There are dumb people. Try not to be one of them. I think this message is universal and doesn't have anything to do with CF. What is the message that has something to do with it?
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      >>There are dumb people. Try not to be one of them. Peer pressure can make smart people do dumb things. And since Crossfit has peer pressure and competition built into its very core, the rates of injuries and potentially-fatal medical conditions like rhabdo are a lot higher.
      - smsm42 13y ago
        Well, I think it depends on how you approach to it. It doesn't have to be a competition with anyone but yourself. I agree that tracking results is at the core of CF, and when there's something measurable in a group setting, there is ample space for the competition. But it doesn't have to be - the choice is for the person to make. If you can let your mind and not your ego drive you, then you don't have to harm yourself for no reason. As for peer pressure - I think when a person above 22 or so of age is not able to withstand peer pressure to do something he thinks is harmful for him/her, there's something wrong happened on the way. Adults are supposed to be able to say no. Of course, you may make a choice to push yourself and take a risk, but that's what being responsible adult is all about - seeing where are the bounds of acceptable risk (and those can be different from person to person) are for you. Of course, again, good teacher is important - so you could always can consult what would be good for you on this exercise. Good coach can see how you do the exercise and tell if this weight or this form is good for you or you have to scale it down. That's where you have to, again, master your ego and be responsible too. And of course it is a given that you shouldn't go to a group which has different views on how competitive it should be and pressures you into something you're not ready for. There's a lot of difference between supporting and cheering somebody when one chooses to push oneself and pressuring somebody into doing something one is not ready for. If you find yourself in a group that does the latter and not the former - just leave. There are a lot of better settings.

dalke 13y ago

> Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. I have observed that hazing exists, including among adults. People die in hazing events, or are subjected to physical harm, coerced sexual activity, and emotionally abusive behaviors. As you say, "Each person is responsible for their own actions." Using only that logic as a guide, then everyone who dies in a hazing event - in those cases where it's voluntary to join the organization which practices hazing - is solely responsible for their own death. I do not take so narrow a view of that. We also have a responsibility for others as well. It isn't only the hazee who is responsible but also those who were involved or knew about the hazing but did nothing to stop it. Similarly, while I agree that people are responsible for their own well-being in training, I use my same reasoning to say that they are also partially responsible for the well-being of others. If you see someone else using equipment in a dangerous and fool-hardy way, with a high-likelihood that they will be seriously hurt, will you do nothing? If you notice that week after week people doing a specific exercise end up with twisted backs, will you do nothing? Or will you encourage people to work at it and try harder? Does culpability ever exist?

mightybyte 13y ago
When did we jump from encouraging someone to improve themselves to hazing? This had got to be one of the biggest straw men I've ever seen.
- dalke 13y ago
  Really? After nearly 6 years on Hacker News? I should get an award! (Though I suspect you are exaggerating, so there will be no prize for me tonight.) Since you don't like it, take out all references to it. I said "I agree that people are responsible for their own well-being in training [but] they are also partially responsible for the well-being of others." Surely that's a stand-alone statement. The rest of my post gave examples in an exercise context where I think it would be unconscionable to say "Each person is responsible for their own actions. ... you have no one to blame but yourself." The entire point of the essay is, of course, that at some point "encouraging someone to improve themselves" may become "encouraging someone to hurt themselves". At some point there can be a justifiable claim of culpability, and coaches have been sued for bad advice. To deny that culpability doesn't exist, and that it's only the person's recklessness which caused the problem is to be blind to both ethics and the law.

PanTardovski 13y ago

>I don't think form breaks down after a few reps nearly as much as you say. Then you don't know much about training the Olympic lifts or power movements in general. Take a look at this graph -- http://i.imgur.com/vFP0D58.png http://i.imgur.com/vFP0D58.png -- from Practical Programming for Strength Training (Rippetoe, Kilgore, & Pendlay, pg. 131). "Figure 5-3. Electromyogram (EMG) and force production tracings from a high-rep set. Note that the muscle fatigues as more repetitions are completed and that motor control erodes with fatigue, as evidenced by the amplitude scatter of the EMG tracing. This effect can result from a single set, as presented here, or can be the cumulative result of repeated sets." Even by the seventh rep of a single set there's a noticable breakdown shown in the graph. Multiple high rep sets are going to show more and more issues of coordination from even the first rep, especially mixed into circuit training with other high intensity exercises like you'll find in Crossfit WODs.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mightybyte 13y ago
I actually own that book and have read the whole thing...most of it more than once. I'm not saying that motor control doesn't go down. I'm saying that it doesn't go down enough to make it dangerous at the lighter weights. I have been doing high and low rep Olympic lifts since 2007. The only injury I ever got was on a 1RM clean and jerk. That might have been technique related, but it's probably more related to me having a history of previous injury which happened before I ever heard about CrossFit.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  For the love of God please stop with the anecdotal evidence.
  - mightybyte 13y ago
    I don't see you busting out any peer-reviewed studies to support your claim. If you don't have that, then it's your word against mine. The fact that most of the people who have done these movements do them in low reps and really high weight doesn't prove your point either. I have actually done the movements under question in both rep schemes, and it doesn't sound like you have.

thesz 13y ago

Regarding the reps and high weight. Westside Barbell changes program structure from 3 sets of 5 repetitions into 5 sets of 3 repetitions (or even 8 sets of 2 repetitions) precisely because it allows athlete to control form of exercise. The volume is the same, the breakdown is different. As Westside Barbell is trying to keep traumas low, it is a good example why you should not perform complex lifts in long series.

graeme 13y ago
Can you expand on that? I've been doing 3 * 5. I prefer injury minimization to strength gains. What kind of rest period do these use between sets? And do you have data on rep form decomposition at 5 vs. 3?
- thesz 13y ago
  Okay, here's the link: http://www.westside-barbell.com/index.php/the-westside-barbell-university/articles-by-louie-simmons/strength-training-101/331-percent-training-what-is-it-really http://www.westside-barbell.com/index.php/the-westside-barbe... The relevant part: In the squat, what is too heavy to train with and too light to train with? In Russia , much research revealed that 65-82.5% of a 1 rep max is best to build strength in the squat. They suggest 2-6 reps per set. At Westside Barbell we do sets of 2 for 2 important reasons. One, more than 2 reps tends Cause bicipital tendonitis and shoulder discomfort. This pain is commonly felt while benching but, in fact, comes from squatting. The bar shifts to some degree, causing damage. Having your hands spaced too close on the bar may also be the culprit. Two, in a power meet, we don't do reps so if we do 12 sets of 2 reps we are getting 12 first reps per workout. If you do 4 sets of six reps, then you get only 4 first reps. This is closest thing I was able to find. The site was reorganized after I visited it last time and many PDF articles are in HTML format. I highly recommend Westside Barbell, because it operates using principles, not the hardwired percentages and prescribed exercises. You can build your own conjugate system, for your goals or abilities. I did. I also recommend another system, also seen here in HN, Hypertrophy-Specific Training: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html HST also incorporates strategic deconditioning and high-rep phase to lower trauma rate.

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes, competition might help people push themselves, but that shouldn't turn you into a mindless machine that will self destruct just to get the win. If it does, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Bullshit. A Crossfit trainer telling you to do high-rep barbell deadlifts is the equivalent of a doctor prescribing you ten times the dose of a drug you need. What happens when you are hospitalized? Is it your fault because "each person is responsible for their actions"?

mightybyte 13y ago
No, they're not at all equivalent. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, in the six years I've been doing them high-rep olympic lifts have never injured me, but a 1RM clean and jerk has. So until you can come to me with a large scale study supporting your point, you are just making baseless assertions that are contradicted by my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  The quality of discussion on HN has fallen so far that we are now using anecdotal evidence to argue that doing a complex multi-joint mechanical movement with heavy weights in a high-rep, high-tempo fashion is not dangerous, and the burden of proof is on dem non-Crossfitters to use large scale studies to prove that it is. I, too, have written elsewhere in this thread. Specifically, I wrote that these lifts are so complex that Olympic athletes spend years learning and mastering proper form, and go through very strict regimens to ensure their form does not break under heavier loads. There's a reason for that: the human body operates within certain parameters and going outside those parameters in the name of "pushing your limits" can permanently cripple you. So there is your "large scale study:" look at how Olympic athletes do it, because that's the way to do it safely and without destroying your muscles, joints and internal organs.
  - mightybyte 13y ago
    That's not your large scale study because they are focused on something completely different--namely max weight. A 135 lb clean and jerk is quite light in the grand scheme of things, but it can do a whole lot for your fitness when viewed in a holistic program that includes other exercises. Anecdotal evidence may not have the weight of a large-scale study, but it's not meaningless. In the absence of any other evidence, it is an indication that the mean probably tilts towards one side. And I have yet to see any real evidence that high rep olympic lifts are dangerous other than the non sequitur that they're complex motor movements.